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This is an interview with Amanda Gomez. The interviewer is Elinor Aspegren. The time is about 4:02 on Friday, October 22nd. The location is TheirStory.

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Amanda is in Mount Pleasant and Elinor is a Van Ness. Amanda, thank you so much for joining us.

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Do you mind if I record? I asked you before, but do you mind if I record this interview I do not mind if you record this interview. Okay, awesome.

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So I have a whole bunch of questions, we'll start, kind of, with beginning of life stuff and how you became a journalist (unintelligible) and how that all came to be.

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Does that sound good? Yeah. Sorry, one second because my window because I'm hearing a lot of background noise.

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Okay, no more street noise. You were saying? Yeah. Well, so we can start with the

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first question, which is: Where were you born? Can you tell me a little bit about where you grew up? Sure, so I was born in a Monterey Park, California suburb, but I was really raised in East Los Angeles and moved there with my mom.

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My mom and I moved in with my grandmother in her house in East LA, when I was about—God, how old are you when you were in the fifth grade? However, old that is. It's like (pause) Eleven, maybe? I would say that my formative

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years were in East LA. Can you tell me a little bit about growing up in East LA? What was that like? Sure, so East LA We call a little Little Mexico.

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Like little TJ, really, little Tijuana. So it is like a 98%—I think that's probably changing—it's getting more diverse, but it's like probably like over—the majority is definitely Latinx.

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And everyone is pretty much Spanish-speaking. I again grew up with my mom. It's just myself and her, except I did have like a massive extended

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family. I lived with my grandmother and then actually we have like—like almost probably a commune—It's like three houses back-to-back, and my aunt lived in the front

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house with her two daughters, and my other aunt lived in the back house with her five boys. And so it was a lot of extended family around.

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Cool. What does your mom do? She is a county employee so she works for the Los Angeles County. She is a secretary for a lawyer

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essentially who—I guess they're all lawyers, but they're like county government officials and she is their management secretary. How—I mean, you talked about this huge extended family. How did that influence your journalism career and how did that

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influence how you've grown up? How did my upbringing influence my journalism, my career? I guess I would say that I was, like, I guess so like I was very social because I was always with my extended family.

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I think this like perception of only children it's like it's just that, I mean, it is just that and so you're kind of social. I guess I could kind of [say] the

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negative stereotype is like selfish and just like with quiet by themselves, but having been raised with my entire extended family. It was a very collaborative

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environment—I was and so I was always kind of an age wise, I would say smack down in the middle. So kind of always advocating for my space in the family and my kind of negotiating my space, was definitely those are I think

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skills that can be translated into journalism like having to be very social and like always, yeah, so I think in that kind of way maybe I really thought about that. Yeah, definitely.

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Did you always want to be a journalist or were there other career options that you thought about? I actually, I, I mean, I was a journalism major in undergrad. I knew pretty early on in high school that I wanted to become a

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journalist. I was very curious when I was younger. I always like I was just

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constantly, like the cousin who asked a lot of questions amongst the family, like I, that was just kind of talking, talking talking and just questions, questions, questions. And then [I] got involved in journalism from high school.

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And yeah, I wanted—I knew I wanted to do it. So [the desire to be a journalist] was very early on, which is like strange. Yeah.

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Do you remember like a specific moment or like moments where you're like "a ha, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life?" I don't think it was a moment per se. I think it was, I think honestly if there was all moment, it was

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like (pause) I was like in my high school guidance counselor's [office] who I was actually like really close with and she was pretty dope. Miss Virgo.

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I even remember her name. She asked me what I wanted to declare, like my major, and what I was interested in and I was like. I had pieced together, like my years, like like, oh, this is

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something that I can do in my home. That was surprisingly—[my mom] like, she watched the news a lot. Like she always had [unintelligible] on or like CNN. And so I was just like thinking about what was my interest and

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then I just felt like, yeah, journalism. And then figured I could switch and then kind of just... I never did. Awesome.

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Yeah, can you—So you went to—Where'd you go to college? Emerson College. Oh, cool. Cool.

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Why did you make—I guess that's kind of seems like a big change from like East LA to Boston. Yes. I joke that I've never met like

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white people, really until fucking Boston. Like, I truly my entire, like, upbringing was with, like, everyone was Asian or Latinx and like that was my upbringing. And then my, like, I can tell you my first best friend who was

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white, like, in college—Sylvia (unintillegible) which is really funny. We just kind of, anyways. Yeah, very big change.

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I basically, I couldn't afford—I was supposed to go to—I applied to NYU and couldn't afford it. And then Ms. Virgo, who was helping me with my life was like, "Have you ever heard of ever since Emerson College?" It's like, "no."

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And she mentioned that it was not as expensive and also like open campus and I knew I wanted to like go to the East Coast. I just wanted something new and I had like maybe romanticized Gilmore Girls way too much.

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And like yeah, I figured I don't want it to—And then she told me to apply. Like give it a shot. And then they offered like a full

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scholarship. And so I went. Nice. Did you—were you involved in

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journalism? I was. What was that like for you? Had you been involved in journalism at your high school? Yes. Yes, I was.

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I was not involved with—we had a paper [in high school] and in college I was a part of my local radio station. So that was a different medium.

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And I thought that was when I, when I was there, I was like, yeah, I was very involved in broadcast journalism, which was a new experience for me. But yeah.

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Do you have like a specific—Do you like broadcast journalism better than print journalism? Both? Neither? I've learned now having, yeah, worked in every medium that it's not so much the medium than it is

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what I'm reporting on. So, I don't favor one or think broadcast over, I guess, online or print. I am mostly.

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It's like what I'm what I'm doing. I know that I like reporting on healthcare I know. I love reporting on ... I honestly love local news. I know just types of things that I like to report on.

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So yeah, I mean that leads me pretty well into my next question. You're working right now at Kaiser Health News. Can you tell me about kind of—this is a very broad question, but can you tell me about your path from Emerson to your current job?

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What was your specific path? So I moved to DC directly after undergrad. My first job, technically in DC, I was actually a hostess at Birch and Barley (unintelligible), a

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restaurant in Logan Circle for like, over the summer. Because after graduation day, I like did that and was trying to find a gig. I was like "if I don't find a gig

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in journalism, by the end of summer, I'm moving back home." Thankfully the PBS NewsHour had a desk assistant program and they accepted me into that. So that fall I started working at

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PBS News which is broadcast, was there for two years, then applied -- a friend of mine was working at this website called thinkprogress.org and she liked it a lot of she described the economy there.

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[There were] lot of, like, younger bosses, who are willing to take a chance on their newer reporters. And so at the PBS NewsHour it was a very top down structure and this is -- they were willing to take more chances.

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And so I applied on a whim and I got it. I was healthcare reporter there for two years. Then I went to the Washington City Paper—again, applied off that kind of randomly.

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Someone at Think Progress had worked at City Paper and loved it. So I said, "Sure. I'll apply," and worked there for about I guess two years.

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They're all like one and a half I guess. And then I applied -- yeah, I applied after having worked in healthcare at the Progress, and I knew was very well thing (can't figure out what she says in this).

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Those were reporters that I leaned on a lot when I was there. Julia Rovner's reporting I knew well...

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At the Washington City paper I was a general assignment reporter but I was still really focused on healthcare stories especially with the pandemic. My first couple stories that for the ones I was very proud of that

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City Paper was about healthcare reform. And so yeah, I was—when Kaiser Health News—there was an opportunity that arose, I took it. I'm here now, working at Kaiser.

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Nice. So you—I kind of want to backtrack a little bit. You moved to Washington DC right

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out of college. Why did you make that choice? It sounds like it wasn't like for a specific job. Yeah, so I did actually—I spent a semester during college in DC.

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And I fell in love with the city. It was funny too, because I now have a completely different perspective of DC. I fell in love with what I think of like how people I think across

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the country think of it—as (emphasizes) Washington, the capitol. I wanted to be a, I thought I wanted to be a then I was I wanted to be a national reporter.

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I wanted to work on Capitol Hill. I wanted to do that and cover national politics is what I thought I wanted to do. And I was doing that at PBS Newshour are covering national

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news and covering and doing that kind of work. So that's why I moved to DC. I wanted to work somewhere, like that.

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I'm gonna say my opinion has changed because now that having the PBS NewsHour and having done that at Think Progress, that kind of national politics and capitol reporting.

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I've realized that I don't enjoy that as much. I like policy, but I don't like the (reporting on) policy impacts on people and kind of explaining

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things in that shape. And then also, I like to sort of do have a passion for local news. It's easy to see policy manifest

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in that way. Definitely. Being a national reporter or working at PBS NewsHour, was that a different experience from your time working on Emerson's College

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newspaper? Absolutely. I mean, I was a local reporter—it was in the newspaper's radio station, and I was a local reporter—like WERS was the station and it was local and I was covering ... I think one of it was

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like Whitey Bulger's, like that whole thing. I remember covering a story that I enjoyed was like reporting out when I was younger, or at that local radio stations about like local gangs, like "What is the new gangster?" And that was like the

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thing at Emerson or in Boston. But anyways, yeah, it was. I was doing local reporting and then I went to PBS Newshour, where I was in charge of like, national headlines—it was almost like

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national and international groups. At the PBS NewsHour, I remember a lot of segments that I helped with about Syria and Colombia, and yeah.

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So, it was definitely like the PBS NewsHour was very helpful in terms of like refining my news judgement. Like, I was in charge of

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headlines. Like, I don't know if you've watched the Newshour before, but it's basically—the top of the show is about the headlines, like Judy Woodruff would read and Gwen Ifill

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would read the top stories. And I was in charge of helping to write or identify what were the top news stories of the day, so that was kind of what I was doing.

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Yeah, definitely. We talked a little bit about how it impacted your news judgement, but did it impact you in other ways? Kind of covering national news and...

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What do you mean by that? Like impact me personally like ... I don't understand. Yeah, like personally—I mean, speaking from personal experience like going from working on my

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local newspaper to covering breaking headlines was intimidating. Oh, yeah. It was, there was a lot of anxiety about like, I remember that when I

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was starting off at, I remember there being just like very nervous all the time. My direct boss was, he was like, AP—former Associated Press.

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He was just very stern, he was very stern man. His name is Russ Clarkson, and I have a great respect for him, he's helped me a lot in refining my

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news judgement. But I was, yeah, I was very nervous. I remember being a production

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assistant there, and we do this thing—we call whoever is the production assistant—we'd rotate weekly who was on call and responsible feeding him like morning news updates or whatever. And I remember like we call at eight o'clock in the morning or

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7:30 or whatever— you'd be at work by 7—and like me getting angry because he would then report the top news stories and add a morning meeting to all of the staff and I was kind of just telling him what to tell the rest of staff is—anyways, and I had to like

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relay information and having a lot of anxiety telling him stuff. Like, it was very, I don't even recognize her (referring to herself) with the amount anxiety that I had. And then finally, I became more confident in my ability to like

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say, "Yeah, this is important." And those fears and anxieties kind of—I mean, I still get little nervous, you know, but I just remember back I was petrified. It was very strange when I think

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about it. Definitely, um. And then how about your transition to the City Paper? Was that a big transition for you? Or how what was that like?

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I think, Think Progress I think—PBS NewsHour, if they gave me skills, Think Progress gave me a lot of confidence. I was the healthcare reporting during the Affordable Care Act repeal and replace time.

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And so there was like a lot of trust given to me. And then when I was at City Paper, I had confidence— even though it was an entirely new beat, like

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I've never had reported on local DC before. I knew my council member was like Brandon Todd, but did I really know—like DC's weird—the governing structure like what the office of the Attorney General?—it was very intimidating in that way.

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But because I had like the kind of skills that one has a journalist is the kind of how you approach stories, it was doable. If that makes sense. So, and then also, I had a great

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team, like my boss, Alexa Mills for the City Paper. Whenever I didn't know something, I was comfortable enough to say "I don't understand it. Who's the best person to speak

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with on this subject?" or whatever. She was very supportive. And I mean she hired me and she knew I had no experience on reporting on local DC.

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Yeah, definitely. And so you've covered healthcare for a lot of your tenure—I mean, you're working right now a Kaiser Health News, which is the pinnacle of healthcare reporting.

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Do you think healthcare is your favorite beat? Like, if you were to do any other beat, what would you do? I mean, honestly, I'm torn between—I mean, I really enjoy reporting on health care, but I also really enjoy reporting on

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local DC. I thoroughly enjoy that too. But yeah, I definitely like both Yeah, if but I know that I could be reporting on anything else.

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Like health is like social determinants of health... there's so much you could be doing with that. I'm most interested in that.

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Yeah. Cool. We're kind of going to move like a little bit into the before and after of like, before the pandemic and then after the pandemic—I

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really mean like, after like March 11th when the world shut down. My first questions are like, can you provide details about your typical day or week at—you were working at the city paper at the time.

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So well, what did [your job] look like pre-pandemic and then what it looked like post pandemic? It's kind of a big question. Sure.

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I was always responsible—before and after March 11th, 2020—in charge of the morning newsletter. That was my first responsibility. I had to get it out.

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I had to pass—I had to toss copy to my editor by 10 a.m.. So I was working or thinking about what the story—what the newsletter was going to be— the news section

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was going to be—kind of, in 500 words or less. Tell readers what the news stories of the day—If you had to know one thing today, what is it?—And I was responsible for processing copy by 10 a.m.

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Sometimes on hard day it was eleven. And so, yeah, the morning was always very rough, I guess sometimes because it was, you

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know, I had to be writing and thinking past—sometimes I would start on the story of the day before. Before March—when did I start? A couple months, honestly, it was like.

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I started that summer. So like I started July of... I think it was 2019. So it was just a couple of months than the pandemic hit and I was finally, I think getting my bearings where I was little, I was

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writing the story in the mornings as opposed to the night before something that would shake out that way. Anyways, that was what I would do in the mornings and in the afternoon, I would be what I call like what softworks.

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I was an active writing or like thinking about stories —part of like the brainstorming there was reading everything online or making calls, be they on or off the record. It was just basically getting an expanse of what was happening and

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what I should be covering its so yeah. With the morning. I was ultra productive and was like publishing publishing like, you know, and then the afternoon

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would kind of settle and and less... yeah. And then [there would be] some editor meetings on Thursdays after we published our weekly paper where we'd kind of go over what the hell our alt-weekly looked like.

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We'd kind of comment on what we did well and what the next week will look like but that's generally how it be. Cool. I realized I forgot a question and

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before we go to post March—If you, if you could go back and tell your younger self —just like, I mean when they're walking out of your college counselor's office, basically when they have the thought of having decided that we're going to pursue a career in

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journalism. If you could tell your younger self anything about your path or their path, what would you tell them? I would tell them that— I would

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tell them that. Journalism. That your job isn't—that your job isn't everything. You are not your job and that you should have a back-up plan.

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I say that having in terms of like—thinkprogress.org is now under. I had friends who were laid off there.

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I don't mean like a back-up plan as in like, escaping out of journalism though that is definitely like I have that kind of contingency plan. But like, do I have savings, do you have a good amount in your

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savings, can you work elsewhere what are your options if I can organize—I just always just make sure you I think savings [is the most important thing]. Just know you are not your job to

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do so if it falls through you have some cushion. Yeah, that there was a lot of, I had a lot of anxiety during that time when I was watching and I was in part why I applied at Washington City Paper, (unintelligible).

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And I was just like, "I need to be applying, I can see this crumbling. I need to get out." I landed thankfully at the Washington City Paper a couple of

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months before they officially pulled the plug. They kind of give us an off ramp like, they saw it coming, but I remember having so much anxiety and I think it was because I was like "Well.

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I'm journalism. What if my—this is a core part of who I am." But then during that time, I realized "Like no. You are other things.

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You'll make it, you're going to be fine." So that's something that I would—it's something I would keep in mind that I'm not just a [journalist].

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I'm not a journalist tomorrow that's fine. Cool. Yeah, cool, so we can move to the kind of talking about COVID and

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your coverage of COVID now if you're—if you're all good with that. Do you remember where you were when you first heard about COVID? Or when you first covered COVID.

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I was in the office. I was at the Washington City Paper office. I like—when I first—I think I was

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like I read about it from—I've always been an avid reader of like that Stat News and I think I've read it from like Helen Branswell like talking about it. (aside) Yeah, that's her last

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name. They had mentioned that this was like, "Something was happening!" like in January and then in February, I was like, Maybe this is something?" I remember, (aside)

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God, when was my first COVID story? I wrote about hospitals, like if our hospitals are prepared. God. I like want to—now I'm curious.

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I like (searching) Are hospitals ready for COVID Washington City Paper... I want to say it was early—Oh, yeah, I mean, are hospitals prepared. Oh, yeah, it was okay, March 24th.

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So anyways, so I remember yeah, I remember reading about it from healthcare reporters, who specialized in this beat. And then I remember going to a press conference like the mayor's press conference on COVID at the Wilson building and then it was

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like "Oh, this is like serious." Like. Yeah. It wasn't my first story that made COVID real for me.

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It was like, then going to the mayor's press conference and that was like Mid-march, and being like, oh shit. Yeah, definitely.

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Do you? When did your newsroom shut down? Or like, not shut down. But like, went remote? Yeah, I think it was that.

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I mean, I remember, I think it was whenever the mayor declared a public health emergency like that—Yeah, it was or whenever it was. They were like "We cannot [unintelligible]."

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It was that week or it was whenever that happened. I can't even give you a day, but it was very quick. Our newsroom was very, like—as soon as it became evident that we shouldn't be like crowding around one another and like it was like

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that. Our office went remote. Do you remember like specific thoughts that went through your head when you were told that you were going to be remote?

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I assume it was said it was only for a couple weeks. I mean I thought it was—I mean it felt really surreal. But I also I remember—by that point when they had said it I would have been speaking with like I owe for the story about

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hospitals. Like I was already speaking to us of a couple of like healthcare providers who were like, this is serious until I was I mean, I did not think it would be more than a

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couple of weeks ago, but I remember being like, oh this is this is like this is no joke. Okay. I don't remember being like, oh whatever.

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Like I remember me. Yeah. Oh, this is a little nerve-racking. Okay, like oh shit.

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And what immediately changed for you in terms of your productivity—your work week—when you went remote and were in quarantine? So your question is did being affect my productivity?

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Yeah, it's more like yeah, what did what happened—like, how did your work week change from the pre-pandemic times? I mean honestly, it became very became very stressful in that the news was clearly the coronavirus and like, for example—we had

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intended like the paper's issue is going to be about—It was like the week after—I guess the week that the mayor—(to herself) When did the mayor declare a public health emergency? Sorry whenever Bowser declared a public— (searching) Bowser

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declares public health emergency over pandemic. Okay. Yeah, March 11. So then it must have been the next week—our issue was about—because

00:34:52.500 - 00:35:05.900

then she started like closing or rather like everyone—like, events started to get cancelled. And so the week's issue like the upcoming Thursday issue was about -- It was like a movie guide or

00:35:05.900 - 00:35:11.310

like a festival guide. And so then everyone was like, "Shit, this is all canceled. And certainly the news is COVID.

00:35:11.600 - 00:35:25.900

We have to—" So then it became of like all hands on deck of like the city shutting down. Like, I remembered the paper, the front page that week was all these cancels and it was about

00:35:25.900 - 00:35:35.720

everything that was being shut down—like the metro to like gatherings to restaurants. And I was responsible for health care systems and schools.

00:35:35.720 - 00:35:50.000

And this was like DC public schools was going remote. Well, it was madness. Like I remember being very being very stressed with trying

00:35:50.000 - 00:36:03.300

to—because everything is changing so fast, there was a lot of pressure to be accurate and then also be, yeah, most up-to-date. It was very hard. So, but we were remote, and there

00:36:03.300 - 00:36:20.000

were some technical challenges with that. Like, knowing we've never put a paper out remotely like that. So there was like—I was not more on the technical side. I remember like our art design, the art designer, the

00:36:20.000 - 00:36:32.100

publisher—she was struggling and so, like things were going slower. I remember we didn't put the paper to bed until like midnight or something ridiculous, when we were all on slack on Wednesday evening like, "Is everything.

00:36:32.100 - 00:36:52.010

okay?" It was, it was a mess. So, it became definitely more chaotic for a while. Yeah, I remember it was just it was there was definitely learning curve from working at home, not because I was like feeling like—I

00:36:53.900 - 00:37:03.110

was I'm pretty productive at home. Like I, I don't think like it changes the way that I like—my behavior and everything like more tempted like I'm withdrawn in any which way.

00:37:03.110 - 00:37:12.700

It's more. so like it was just really hard for those first couple of weeks just to stay on top of all the news because it was changing so fast and no one knew what the hell

00:37:12.700 - 00:37:29.800

was going on at that point. Yeah, um. Yeah, so then you like a couple months ago by, we still don't really know a lot.

00:37:31.000 - 00:37:51.150

Can you tell me about what working was like then? Like into April. What do you mean? Like what would like we're working in terms of what? Like?

00:37:51.150 - 00:38:23.600

Um, there was still like an inundation of news at that point, but I guess from the like the initial kind of panic of like trying to cover all these things and like no one knows what's going on to moving to like a little bit of a steadier ground.

00:38:24.700 - 00:38:37.500

Um, yeah. Sure. So there was definitely a moment—the first couple months. It was acclimating to a new way of life, right?

00:38:37.500 - 00:38:48.030

Like, Okay, learning curve, like, reporting on this thing that I had no idea about. And then to writing, like, I think every single day or could ever weekly about the coronavirus.

00:38:48.800 - 00:39:04.700

Yeah, you had fell into a habit. For example, I knew that I would be going to like press conferences weekly or like I mean, that's it's like—and over the summer, I was like going to press conferences

00:39:04.800 - 00:39:20.590

three times a week. And then I had to bet I'd got like a good, like I— People had known that I was reporting on [COVID] And so I like started to have like a good rolodex and no one has a

00:39:20.590 - 00:39:34.300

rolodex anymore—but a rolodex of sources, like especially public health experts that I would turn to. Because it wasn't enough to just like—I learned eventually that—I mean, I always knew this especially with COVID like there

00:39:34.300 - 00:39:44.600

was—Because I didn't know it was going on and because I was just like, "Oh well, like the health department should know what's happening, like what the heck is. Like they put out these metrics

00:39:44.600 - 00:39:58.200

was like they would know these are the metrics." But then after a while, I knew like to be—not more critical, you always know to be more critical—but in those early days, I just remember being like, "I want to like communicate

00:39:58.200 - 00:40:08.500

information, right, to help disseminate information." But then I became more comfortable of like contextualizing it and then kind of going back "Like, oh they said this." If that makes any sense.

00:40:08.500 - 00:40:23.700

I got more comfortable reporting on this issue and then I got better at contextualizing it. At first it was only, it was just overwhelming where you were just kind of saying, like, for example, the Mask policy, right?

00:40:23.800 - 00:40:37.100

Kind of like, they're saying, "Don't buy masks." So that was what I was saying, "Don't buy masks, per government." But then over time, it became more like you were able to, like, kind of ask, "Why are we saying? This is what it, why are we making

00:40:37.100 - 00:40:56.200

these choices?" It became clear that, like, governments were not prepared for this pandemic and like that we needed to, like, and then City Paper got really serious about like, sometimes the government in, or even your health officials are not, like making are

00:40:56.200 - 00:41:10.400

not, you know, maybe it's not the best decision. There are other ways that like governments are responding. It became very apparent that there like, there wasn't a national plan, right? Like every, a lot of states or

00:41:11.200 - 00:41:29.700

cities and counties were having different plans. And so I had to like, I became more comfortable with scrutinizing what the plan was? Yeah, yeah, definitely. And moving a little bit to how it affected your personal life or

00:41:29.700 - 00:41:47.200

your, yeah, your personal self. I mean, you're going in a news room every day, and then you're hanging out with friends and then suddenly all that stops.

00:41:48.200 - 00:42:00.600

And then we have like to we're like, "Okay, like two weeks of this." And then we have two weeks turns to a month, two months, three months, four months, and now we're here.

00:42:01.200 - 00:42:22.200

How has that? How kind of initially did, and then like a couple months after, how did that affect you personally and mentally? I should say that. I'm very I was very aware based on like speaking with other people

00:42:22.200 - 00:42:42.800

like I had—one of my first cover story for the City Paper was interviewing people's experience in quarantine. But I learned, you know, I would see became (aware) speaking to sources like—Look, I didn't have kids like school-aged kids in my

00:42:42.800 - 00:42:55.600

house. Like it was I lived it was myself and then I had one roommate and we lived in an english basement apartment and that was rough in terms of I was negotiating where

00:42:55.600 - 00:43:07.480

to work and that was hard but my roommate—she's one of my oldest friends. We were close and we both had very demanding jobs she actually works for a vaccine institute.

00:43:07.480 - 00:43:20.800

So she was very on COVID. And in fact she became very helpful during that time because I would like—she went to GW and like, majored in epi—she majored in public health and like, had the

00:43:20.800 - 00:43:31.200

language, like, she was very articulate. And so when I needed help, like I would voice it and then we would talk about it. But anyways, I was what I was

00:43:31.200 - 00:43:38.310

saying before is, I had learned pretty early and of like my privileges in the pandemic. And so there was, I had that it was like "Okay.

00:43:39.400 - 00:43:54.400

You know, it's just me." I would go out a lot, you know, before the pandemic. I was like an avid, uh, patron at my local bar and I love going there and like taking a load off.

00:43:54.400 - 00:44:05.500

Like I loved going out with friends and like, bitching about the job, like, this job is very stressful. (trails off) Like I missed that

00:44:05.500 - 00:44:16.700

and crave that and especially when work got really hard. But I also recognize that like, I only had to go to press conferences. Even them with my boss wasn't

00:44:16.700 - 00:44:27.900

forcing me to, you know, I really felt a sense of urgency of going to things like that and asking questions. But other people were going into like jobs every day, and like that was scary.

00:44:27.900 - 00:44:40.100

And so I guess I just want to like recognize like I knew then like I was like pretty fortunate. Um, but yeah, I mean, like I said it was hard. I'm a very social person, I missed going out.

00:44:44.200 - 00:44:57.600

And also like the work got really hard and stressful. So like I really wanted to get a load off but couldn't when the work day ended. And—you know, I feel like a lot of

00:44:57.600 - 00:45:08.400

people the work day, you know, and I would—because I was working from home, I found that I would always be working and let's always be online and on the internet, because I needed to know what was happening, the news was changing all the time.

00:45:08.400 - 00:45:21.300

And so that was just a lot of like days that were longer. I was working so much, like 10-hour days or like more, it was ridiculous. And so that was challenging.

00:45:24.100 - 00:45:42.200

And what else was hard? It was really challenging but also I did like reporting on it. I think it helped me kind of like I'm like, I'm like I'm kind of like—I wanted to know what was

00:45:42.200 - 00:45:48.900

going on. Just like, you know, to kind of make sure everything was okay. And so like reporting at all on

00:45:48.900 - 00:45:56.500

it. I felt like very like I was able to help my friends like we had group chats, they were like, well, "What are the rules? What are we supposed to be doing?

00:45:56.500 - 00:46:06.800

What's going on?" And like, me and my roommate Cassie were like "This is like what we know." And so I felt like a resource amongst like the people I love and care about. Even with my mom who is (in) L.A..

00:46:06.800 - 00:46:22.700

I had a lot of anxiety about her going into work every day because she never got to work remote. She was one of like essential employees for the county and I helped me like working a lot strangely like helped me be sane

00:46:22.700 - 00:46:40.320

because then I was able to like know what was happening and able to kind of—not offer guidance, but like offer just like information. Like I wasn't obviously I was relaying like official guidance and like able to kind of help in that I felt like helping—like a

00:46:40.320 - 00:46:53.400

helper in that way be it with my friends or family. So that made it easier like it was—if that made sense. Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, definitely and kind

00:46:53.400 - 00:47:11.300

of getting back to—You began your response by talking about some of the articles that you wrote. I mean the main article that you've talked about was talking to people who had gone remote or

00:47:11.300 - 00:47:30.850

talking to people who are in quarantine. Are there any other articles that you've written either and memorable or articles that made a big impact on you that you written over this past year or past year and a half?

00:47:31.400 - 00:47:49.600

Yeah, I mean, god the pandemic reporting was—I was like writing on COVID all the time. It was pretty—I mean, I think that like I did my best to have the newsletter be—and that's why I

00:47:49.600 - 00:48:08.800

think I'm obsessed with like local reporting because I truly to communicate the information as clearly as possible because a lot of information was being like garbled. So, I'm just like proud of like, the product that was just very

00:48:08.800 - 00:48:15.020

streamlined during the pandemic. "Like, where are you in line?" Like those are some articles that I were like, you know, in terms of getting the vaccine.

00:48:15.020 - 00:48:25.000

Or like, "What are the rules? what are the reopening rules?" It's stuff like that that I'm proud of. Like, it was just, it was truly

00:48:25.100 - 00:48:42.600

intended to be, like a—and I, and I would have people respond and like ask me questions, especially during the vaccine times. Because I had seniors asking me, "Where could I go? What could I, you know, tell me where to find information?" And I

00:48:42.600 - 00:48:48.880

would have that. The product that was distributed I'm proud of. Outside of the newsletter, stories

00:48:49.000 - 00:49:11.550

that stay with me—one in particular that comes to mind is one that I did about a woman who was pregnant and trying to get her doula in the room with her on her delivery date and how the visitor restrictions impeded on that.

00:49:11.550 - 00:49:27.300

And she was super anxious, like she had to choose between her husband and her doula. And she wanted, you know, she wanted both and she didn't understand why she couldn't and the hospital was understandably

00:49:27.300 - 00:49:44.600

like to "We, you know, we're trying to limit the number of contacts who are you know, in the room because of COVID." But then also like, doulas saying, "We are healthcare workers. Why are you not like valuing us as you would the nurse in that room.

00:49:44.600 - 00:49:56.600

We have been with this person through their journey, their pregnancy journey. Why am I not allowed in?" And so the story talked about that—and the woman trying to fight for her

00:49:56.600 - 00:50:08.100

doula to come into the room. And in the end—she was giving birth at George Washington University Hospital. And then in the end, the story made an impact, and they changed

00:50:08.100 - 00:50:22.100

their visitor rules. So then she was able to have her doula in the delivery room by her for her delivery date. But yeah, it was that one stayed with me and just also like gave

00:50:22.100 - 00:50:35.780

me, like—I had a friend or a former colleague at Think Progress who was also pregnant during this time. She was like, you know, she was pregnant (unintelligible). I remember her emailing me and asking me, "What are the rules in

00:50:35.780 - 00:50:49.950

hospitals?" Like she was, she was mostly terrified that she was just going to have to be alone, like if DC hospitals were ever going to have like in the New York zero visitors. She was anxious that she was going to not have a husband in the room

00:50:49.950 - 00:50:58.900

with her. So, I remember like that became, like, my mail, I was attached to the hip. People were constantly emailing me, like, "What are the rules?

00:50:58.900 - 00:51:11.550

What do you know?"And I would do my best to like answer every single one of them, that was—that I think also like why my work week was like into the nights and weekends. I was responding to a lot of their emails.

00:51:13.400 - 00:51:22.350

That's a story that stays with me a lot, actually. There are a couple of others, but I don't know how many you want me to name. You can talk for as long as you

00:51:22.380 - 00:51:31.600

want. (laughs) I can talk a lot as you can see. I guess one other one that I think

00:51:31.600 - 00:51:46.320

about a lot and that's because I always thought about like the psychology of like the pandemic we think, like, there was so much guilt but people were experiencing about like how they were navigating this time.

00:51:46.320 - 00:51:57.900

I know I felt it like, "Am I doing the right thing?" And I think one of the stories that I wrote about that, really like, That really underscored them was when people were getting vaccinated out-of-state.

00:51:57.900 - 00:52:14.500

Like I had so many people—and one of my best friends got vaccinated out of state because DC had used so many of its doses on its healthcare workers who, a majority, a vast majority of whom lived in Maryland and Virginia.

00:52:14.500 - 00:52:23.500

And we were just lower on the rollout, and so people were getting anxious and got vaccinated elsewhere. And I wrote about the

00:52:23.500 - 00:52:41.500

ambiguity—and this, this tension there of like people realizing, like, "I need to go out of state and get my vaccine.: And no one was lying, but some people felt guilty. And so the story is just exploring like, "Why this was happening.

00:52:42.200 - 00:53:02.800

Why are people getting vaccinated out of state?" And in the end—actually DC just published data finally on this but nearly 20% of DC residents got vaccinated out-of-state, which is wild. And so my story is a while ago, was about that tension or, like,

00:53:02.800 - 00:53:16.400

about why people weren't—were traveling so far and if anyone felt compelled to lie, and you know, some people did lie, like about their residency, some states did check into (unintelligible). And what it is.

00:53:16.400 - 00:53:25.300

Why what does it say if you have the means to travel to get, but others—it was very interesting and then I interviewed—they became a great source—the creator of a vaccine hunter page.

00:53:30.600 - 00:53:47.000

And how she always felt weird. She felt like strange about her, her creating this page that had hundreds of thousands of, like, users and who are all like— they were all like, you know, hunting for a vaccine.

00:53:47.000 - 00:54:00.650

It was a very interesting story and well that it didn't make any change, I think it was like I kind of interesting piece just to kind of have in the archives, right about just like what a fucking weird time this all is.

00:54:02.600 - 00:54:16.520

Yeah. Absolutely. You talked a lot about the emails that you got from readers or your friends with questions.

00:54:16.520 - 00:54:32.200

I mean, we talked about the seniors, kind of, reaching out to you. How did the people that you had that emailed you, and then the people that you interviewed, how

00:54:32.800 - 00:55:00.100

did they impact, like, either your coverage or you personally? Both, or neither? I mean, I felt like I was I, How do they—Okay. I'll answer the "how do they

00:55:00.300 - 00:55:11.000

impact me professionally?" I mean, the people who reached out and had questions, you know, when one person had one question. I realized then, like there are so many other people have the same exact question.

00:55:11.000 - 00:55:17.000

And so I'm thankful for everyone contacted me during that time. While they thought, maybe they thought their question was stupid.

00:55:17.000 - 00:55:30.500

Like I had a friend actually—and it would be either emails or Twitter DMs—I had a friend who owns a local business in the area and, you know, he Twitter DM'd me and was like he's a business owner.

00:55:30.500 - 00:55:40.600

He was like, "I don't understand what I'm allowed to do." And I was like, "You and everyone else." Like people felt like silly, like, they didn't get the rules, but it was because they were, sometimes they were just poorly

00:55:40.600 - 00:55:58.200

communicated. I think it was like if capacity limits were lifted, like, people were unclear if the mask mandate was, if people still had to mask, was social distancing—there were

00:55:58.200 - 00:56:09.200

just like little logistical things, like how a business operates that, like, were hard and people didn't know or needed clarification. And so I was so grateful when

00:56:09.200 - 00:56:26.000

people like—while I felt overwhelmed at points—like there was definitely a feeling of like, "Oh my god, I can't handle this. I'm not equipped to." There was definitely also a sense of like gratefulness because they trusted me to like answer that and

00:56:26.100 - 00:56:38.770

they also helped my coverage. I was able to report as thoroughly as I was doing because people reached out and help guide that coverage.

00:56:41.490 - 00:57:04.180

I guess to the how it impacted me personally, like, there was—I mean I was working a lot. So I again thankfully I'm a single person and like I don't have so I was able to but then eventually I had to start creating boundaries.

00:57:07.600 - 00:57:28.700

I think like it was non-stop until honestly until DC "reopened." It was when the mayor lifted all capacity limits on businesses and then I stopped getting as much emails and then I kind of felt like it after that.

00:57:28.700 - 00:57:36.900

Like I think my job—I mean the pandemic is by no means is over but, you know, DC's still under a state of emergency. There's still a lot of things but

00:57:36.900 - 00:57:54.400

the job got, I think I also then was like, alright, I think that chapter of my coverage — of the quick (snaps fingers), like rapid response about—like I'm no longer doing that kind of work even at Kaiser Health News.

00:57:54.400 - 00:58:12.200

But there was a moment where it was just it became like I, you know, I was very -- I was leaning on my therapist a lot because I was getting exhausted. And she was talking about like, creating boundaries, like "Don't

00:58:12.200 - 00:58:21.300

check emails the weekend." I started doing this, like, during the pandemic. Later in, I started deleting my Twitter on the weekends on my phone I mean.

00:58:21.800 - 00:58:30.600

Like I always have twitter on my phone, so I would delete it on the weekends so I don't look at it or like for a day, like Sundays I wouldn't work. So I started doing that later on,

00:58:30.600 - 00:58:42.400

in the pandemic then finally. I'm just kind of the questions and kind of rapid response just kind of naturally came to a close. Does that make sense? Yeah, that totally makes sense.

00:58:44.500 - 00:59:20.900

Yeah, we talked a lot about— Can you tell me a little bit more about how—Can you tell me about the times when you were overwhelmed, more about those times? When I was overwhelmed? I mean—How do I, I guess?

00:59:23.000 - 00:59:33.950

I mean, I was just working a lot. I was just—they were very long stretches. And, you know, it also did not

00:59:33.950 - 01:00:03.150

help that while I was like in you know juggling the daily newsletter that I was writing and publishing five times a week plus writing longer stories, you know, we went from weekly to monthly. It was, I mean, it was really really hard and I was like using

01:00:03.150 - 01:00:27.600

like—they weren't, like, long-term solutions to like systemic problems of being overworked, like, I should—do you know what I mean? It was just they were I was—like my therapist was giving me hacks and I was just like, "I mean sure,

01:00:27.600 - 01:00:36.310

I could delete Twitter on the weekends, but I still feel like anxious and like guilty for not like responding or doing my job, guess, as thorughouly." really—I mean, there was just a lot of guilt.

01:00:36.310 - 01:00:45.830

When I say overwhelmed there was just like a lot of guilt of like not getting to every story or not—because it wasn't just like I wasn't just reporting about the coronavirus.

01:00:47.900 - 01:01:01.800

I was reporting on like, unemployment, like, I was getting emails about like people being on unemployment and not getting their checks. I was reporting on like, like things like that were tangentially

01:01:01.800 - 01:01:15.900

related, right? And so there was just like, "I'm not able to report on everything." and there was a lot of guilt associated with that but also like, "Amanda, you can't like handle everything." And so I was leaning on and

01:01:15.900 - 01:01:29.200

honestly became like best friends with my colleagues at City Paper. Like Laura Hayes is one. And she felt the same way. She was, like, feeling overwhelmed like this was—the coronavirus

01:01:29.200 - 01:01:40.100

decimated the restaurant industry and you know, so her and I were very much leaning on each other. We wanted to be covering everything to the best we can and like we were worried if we were

01:01:40.100 - 01:01:48.400

doing it good enough, if we were missing some stuff, if we were being unfair to certain people or whatever and our coverage—or not whatever. It was very serious and we were

01:01:48.400 - 01:01:56.920

wondering if we were doing justice to our sources. So there's a lot of pressure. And when we were overwhelmed, we leaned on one another.

01:01:56.920 - 01:02:15.200

What I was gonna say it was hard and made it all the harder that we were—and one of the reasons I left City Paper was that we were underpaid. You know, there was also like that looming like the City Paper wasn't

01:02:15.200 - 01:02:25.700

doing well financially during this time, you know, like other businesses. Like other industries we were struggling because the pandemic, because, you know, people weren't

01:02:25.700 - 01:02:36.100

buying ads in our paper. We went to monthly to try to reduce costs and that wasn't doing it. And and so, you know, there was definitely fear and complications

01:02:36.100 - 01:02:47.300

like, "Oh are we going to see a pay cut? Are we going to see layoffs?" Like some papers, alt-weeklies didn't make it through the pandemic. So there was definitely like while

01:02:48.100 - 01:03:13.100

going through a global pandemic and trying to cover it, we were also like dealing with the job insecurity and there was a lot of anxiety there which made it all the harder. And yeah, I didn't—I processed that like [unintelligible] made

01:03:13.100 - 01:03:28.200

sure of things and made sure I was good, you know, that I had enough and, you know, talked to my mom about what would happen if like I was laid off like, "Would I go home, what would that look like?" So there were— there a lot of—(laughs) it was a very

01:03:28.200 - 01:03:41.000

overwhelming stressful time and I relied a lot on my friends during that time and a lot on my therapist. Definitely. Yeah, and I definitely want to get

01:03:41.000 - 01:03:52.300

to why you left. Or I don't—like why. Let me put another way. I want to get to why you went to

01:03:52.300 - 01:04:21.300

KHN (Kaiser Health News) in a minute, but I do want to ask—Was there any time like in these past—how many months, 19 months, 18 months—that you wanted to quit the industry and then why? Or why not? It's funny.

01:04:21.300 - 01:04:43.020

I think that I wanted—I know I had a stronger desire to quit the industry when I was nearly laid off at Think Progress. Like I like actually was looking to becoming a teacher, I looked at, like, the certification process because at Think Progress

01:04:43.020 - 01:04:55.600

I was like, "I hate this feeling of feeling the possibility—of feeling like I'm going to be laid off. Like this is terrible, this is terrifying. No one will hire me and I'm not good enough."

01:04:55.600 - 01:05:04.880

And there was and that was—Like, I remember how that felt so—like I remember where I was when I was looking up backup plans and having those conversations. During the pandemic.

01:05:04.880 - 01:05:20.900

I never felt as strongly as that. I think it was because I felt that the job was so important. Like, it was like, I was like, I

01:05:20.900 - 01:05:33.000

got like thank you emails, and like, I felt so, like, when people were, like, grateful of our coverage, like, at City Paper, for what we were doing. Like that reinforced my passion

01:05:33.000 - 01:05:53.100

for this, which is why I think I will always have, like, a soft spot for like covering local DC and local reporting. Like there's value in, like, that work and in just following the most mundane, like, hearing or like just—or I mean, I remember

01:05:53.100 - 01:06:10.900

like going to—there was a COVID press conference, the same day there was like—What was it? No one was there. It was like me and like to other reporters. And it was the day that DC was rolling out it's like, like the DC

01:06:10.900 - 01:06:27.520

office director was rolling out the vaccine plan, like it was before, like it kind of people—no one was just—because it was, that was corresponding with all the protests in DC and like there was this summer and so there was just a lot of shit happening.

01:06:27.520 - 01:06:41.000

And no one was—for a moment, coronavirus kind of fell off, but then I was like still there reporting. And I felt like I felt like I was like, "Oh my God, like everyone is covering the protest.

01:06:41.000 - 01:06:53.600

Should I be covering the protest?" But there was value in that because in the end she talked about what would be needed to kind of roll back things. It ended up being really valuable because then I tweeted about it,

01:06:53.600 - 01:07:04.000

and people were like, "Oh shit, like do we remember this press conference when she said this?" It ended up being really helpful is the point of that story. So, I just doing it reinforced me

01:07:04.000 - 01:07:14.100

wanting to be a journalist like—During the pandemic. I thought of backup plans, but it wasn't because I wanted to get out. It was because I knew there was a

01:07:14.100 - 01:07:31.000

possibility that I would be forced out like terms of being laid off and not having a job waiting for me. Yeah, I never, I never wanted to quit journalism all together. Not by like if I had my way, I would do it for—yeah, and

01:07:31.000 - 01:07:54.100

thankfully DC had I mean that DC had a rent freeze. So, you know, I wasn't worried about—I was making—and I'm happy to say this—$53,000 at City Paper and I was like, you know, feeling like I was I was pretty—rent was very expensive, you know and (I)

01:07:54.100 - 01:08:08.800

was anxious about like it, you know, I was always like kind of in a—I would do month-to-month paycheck, you know, a rather paycheck by paycheck—live paycheck by paycheck, right? And so, I was like, anxious about being screwed over in that way,

01:08:08.800 - 01:08:13.470

but we ended up having a rent freeze. So I was like, "Alright, I can manage this, like, I can handle this. I have some savings."

01:08:14.300 - 01:08:34.380

But yeah, I mean I by no means was thinking and looking at job opportunities outside of journalism Cool. And then you left the City Paper and went to Kaiser Health News. Can you talk about that transition?

01:08:34.500 - 01:08:42.700

Why you decided to switch papers? What, what? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:08:42.700 - 01:08:57.110

Yeah. The number one reason was pay, man. And I'd known that, and we'd asked our boss, like, not my direct boss, it's the person,like the owner—Mark Ein—of the City Paper,

01:08:57.110 - 01:09:08.800

like, if there was any kind of opportunity for paying increases like for anything, you know, I mean, it was just kind of—it was near impossible like to get. So while I didn't lose my job and

01:09:08.800 - 01:09:18.450

grateful for that, like he actually kept us afloat during the pandemic, we no one was kind of—It was the hardest year of our lives, like all of ours professionally. Like this was—so it was so hard.

01:09:18.450 - 01:09:43.000

And, you know, City Paper, we, like, produced a lot of change and like and no one was, you know, compensated, you know, there was no kind of anything for that work. And so, I knew that like, I knew

01:09:43.000 - 01:10:02.400

that the moratorium on rent increases wasn't forever. I knew if I wanted to remain in Mount Pleasant and like stay in this neighborhood, I would have to get a better paying job and also like, living paycheck-to-paycheck sucks like I hate—like, that

01:10:02.400 - 01:10:14.470

socks. And so I started looking at Journalism opportunities elsewhere and and Kaiser Health News they pay better—a lot better.

01:10:14.470 - 01:10:23.800

And so I got out. And yeah, that was—that was it. And what—I mean, because that's a pretty big change to make in a pandemic.

01:10:24.600 - 01:10:42.900

What was that like for you? What was that transition like for you? I mean, it sucks because I haven't met, like, I haven't worked in the office like it still feels like I'm not, like, I still felt very, you know, I haven't ever—like, I

01:10:42.900 - 01:10:58.900

met my editor, thankfully, like she's taken me out to lunch twice now and I've gone to the physical office to pick up like a desktop or yeah, I mean, my desktop computer, but the transition has been hard because it's like I haven't really gotten to meet all

01:10:58.900 - 01:11:06.500

my colleagues in real life. Like I've done a happy hour with like three of them. We all went for drinks after work

01:11:06.500 - 01:11:25.170

one day because they're you know, they reached out and they're nice. But it's been it's weird for a new job generally. The job itself, I mean, I feel like reporting on healthcare is just slower newsroom.

01:11:26.200 - 01:11:34.560

So that's kind of helped. I can like do this. At City Paper, like that would have been really hard or it would have been really tired and not

01:11:34.700 - 01:11:43.700

want to do it. But now I have more time. I think also just because like, Kaiser Health News, they know that we've all been so exhausted.

01:11:43.700 - 01:11:57.500

Like, they actually gave everyone a week off as a kind of reward, like, you guys just survive this like hellish year (unintillegible). Like you get a week off and, like, everyone was getting a week off so

01:11:57.500 - 01:12:07.300

that no one was interrupted with an email on their time off, if that makes sense. So like yeah, I mean I think it's because it's like a healthcare organization.

01:12:07.300 - 01:12:28.500

It's because everyone knows that this has been hellish and they have some money, the foundation money to kind of support their workers and do that. Awesome, and I'm trying to think

01:12:28.500 - 01:12:57.400

of—So, how do you think your perspective on COVID— like COVID itself—has changed from March? (laughs) From like the dawn of time, March 2020, to now. I mean, we know a fuck ton more

01:12:57.400 - 01:13:13.200

about the virus itself. And I'm just in awe of science, like it's pretty spectacular what cooperation amongst the scientific community can do, right? Like, we know so much more.

01:13:13.200 - 01:13:25.700

We know that it's airborne. We know that it's, you know, we know, you know, who it is disproportionally impacts, more about the health conditions that it you know, that it exacerbates.

01:13:26.800 - 01:13:39.500

It's pretty—and because of that, right, I don't feel as nervous. Like remember when we were terrified to like fucking touch stuff? Like, my roommate was terrified of like—and sanitized our packages.

01:13:40.200 - 01:13:45.850

That was fucking crazy—Like, or no, it wasn't. I don't mean to stigmatize it. But it was just wild.

01:13:45.850 - 01:14:01.870

Like it's it's it was it was wild to be that terrified of things. Like I remember running with a mask running on the side of—like, in the middle of the street

01:14:01.870 - 01:14:18.500

sometimes because I didn't want to be—like I took the six feet apart like very seriously. Like it's wild that—We now are better informed and I'm very grateful for all of the, you know,

01:14:18.600 - 01:14:36.100

healthcare workers and like experts rather who also worked their asses off to help us, you know, become more informed about what this virus can and cannot do. Yeah, definitely.

01:14:37.800 - 01:14:52.700

And in terms of your coverage, how has your perspective changed your coverage? Or like, how have you learned? What have you learned from this pandemic? Yeah, about your coverage.

01:15:05.300 - 01:15:32.830

I learned that it—Rather it like underscored that things are very like, that this is very hard, like there are no hard—it is not that things are, like, so black and white.

01:15:32.830 - 01:15:43.900

Like there's murkiness. And I mean like—and that we don't know a lot of things, like, kind of going back to like, what we knew—what we did and did not know about the virus.

01:15:43.900 - 01:15:55.300

Like, I think that the biggest like, there's just like an assumption, and I kinda alluding to this earlier of, like, like the science community, like, they're like experts, they're like, they know, right?

01:15:55.300 - 01:16:09.600

So, and a lot of the time, it could just be having interviewed so many that they don't like, you know, they don't know, right, there's a lot of like, ambiguity. I remember writing a story about

01:16:10.300 - 01:16:20.560

Johnson & Johnson, the vaccine and that, whether folks should be getting a booster. And I mean, I was like, it became very personal because my mom got the J&J, and I was like, "Should

01:16:20.600 - 01:16:34.100

she be getting booster?" in the back of my mind. And so like, I really approached it from that way and I was looking for, like, a definitive answer and no one could give it to me. And like, like, you know, because and then I and I and I learned to

01:16:34.100 - 01:16:48.700

like give people grace in that way in like it because there is no—at the time there is no yes or no, it's kind of the weighing of things, right? And one of my favorite moments from like a public health official and actually, the New York Times

01:16:50.000 - 01:16:55.700

Daily newsletter that are just kind of underscored this interview. Yeah, I really do appreciate the candor in that.

01:16:55.700 - 01:17:10.000

The CDC director being like in this interview with Andy Slavitt, the former CDC advisor for Biden. They were talking and she gave just like such a nuanced answer about whether J&J recipients should to be getting boosters.

01:17:10.000 - 01:17:21.200

And this was even before her agency, even like, like just now, like, right, like finally gave the okay. But she was like, "I could understand why people are getting boosters at and why some healthcare professionals are.

01:17:21.200 - 01:17:30.400

Because if this is what we know, this is the data we do know this is the data we don't know." And she just like talked to us like we were smart, right, like we could make—and it wasn't gratifying.

01:17:30.400 - 01:17:42.800

And sometimes I wish that like—I want a yes or no, but if you're not going to—there are reasons why even your experts can't give you a definitive answer. And it's because there's a lot of ambiguity, there's a lot of nuance

01:17:42.800 - 01:18:00.300

here. And so I learned, yeah, that that there is—that's what I kind of learned through all of this is that you have to kind of keep an open mind with that, with being in

01:18:00.300 - 01:18:21.100

this kind of this moral fog or this kind of like knowledge fog. It's just (unintelligible) And, you know, I guess how you as a journalist, how you walk that is by, as clearly as you can walk through, why there is this fog? Why can't people be giving a yes

01:18:21.100 - 01:18:34.200

or a hard no, you know what I mean? Like, what's happening here? That's that's what I feel like, that's kind of the greatest lesson I've learned in terms of coverage. Yeah, definitely.

01:18:35.800 - 01:18:52.800

And I think it would be I'd be remiss not to talk about COVID disinformation or misinformation. Whatever you fancy. Did you receive any—or have you I

01:18:52.800 - 01:19:17.600

guess, yeah—Have you seen any COVID misinformation? I mean I assume you have but you have any like specific examples? I've seen like active—Like you, I think, you know, even speaking with people there were definitely like some who, like, were, you

01:19:17.600 - 01:19:27.400

know, didn't know. And so, like, were ill-informed and then just kind of, like, misspoke (I) was like, "Oh, this is actually what's happening." So there was—even in like

01:19:27.400 - 01:19:42.130

interviewing people like, "Why are you gotten the vaccine?" "Oh, because this." And then like in the interview, this is like kind of being, "Oh this is actually like." You know, so I definitely saw that professionally and I did my best

01:19:42.130 - 01:19:55.100

to, like, correct the record. And I wouldn't correct them by explicitly being like, you're wrong. I would just like reinforce I do know based on what experts that

01:19:55.100 - 01:20:03.900

I've spoken [told me] or with what the CDC says, you know what I mean? Like, so there was a lot. Like anyway, and it wasn't malicious. Like, a lot of—I mean there is that online, on the internet like

01:20:03.900 - 01:20:12.800

on (unintillegible) but I didn't really engage with that kind of stuff. But I'm just saying even with like people or the folks I was interviewing, about like, "Why are

01:20:12.800 - 01:20:27.700

you not getting vaccinated or what are you—" Like, there was just like a there was just an honest to God, Like, you know, they assume something about it. Like about how it'll interact with

01:20:27.700 - 01:20:39.500

their fertility or like whatever. And so and so there was a lot of like balancing even during the interview itself of being like "Oh actually, this is what, I know." You know what I mean?

01:20:43.600 - 01:21:14.310

Yeah, has not really knowing, or being misinformed about something related to COVID, specifically—I mean, like you talked about the examples of COVID vaccines, but—I mean, has that impacted you or anyone else in your life? Misinformation?

01:21:14.310 - 01:21:24.800

Oh, absolutely. I mean, one of my cousins, the person I was like raised with, she didn't want to get the vaccine. I think this was why I was like empathetic to it while I was

01:21:24.800 - 01:21:34.800

reporting. It's because people in my own family were misinformed and didn't want to get the vaccine, so. And so I was like, I was like very I had almost I have practiced it,

01:21:34.800 - 01:21:46.400

like I'm practicing my lines. Like as a reporter kind of correcting the record while I was reporting me and then also my family, My friends, everyone was like pretty good.

01:21:46.450 - 01:21:58.400

Because, like, my network of people—Like one of my best friends here, she works at a vaccine institute, like, at a vaccine institute, a pretty prominent one. And so like—I was—it could be easy

01:21:58.400 - 01:22:13.320

to assume that like, based on my friendship network that and like my professional network that like, "Oh, we all know." But like there was a reminder that no one is obsessively watching the COVID data like me and my best friends are.

01:22:13.320 - 01:22:24.700

(laughs) Like from my family because they—my cousin is has a fucking full-time job, like she is not obsessing over COVID. Even she thought, you know, journalists were blowing it out of proportion.

01:22:24.700 - 01:22:33.410

Like she was just like she wasn't watching, she was like, "Why? Or why is there a public health emergency? I don't understand." And I'll be like, "Oh, look, here's another the numbers, the

01:22:33.410 - 01:22:47.900

infections, the deaths." Like, because she was an—like her job wasn't to like, obsess over this information like it was for me the last, like, year or so. So there was definitely like

01:22:47.900 - 01:23:05.400

a—that was like a humbling moment, like my family speaking to them and then like, when I would go out in out in the, quote-on-quote "go out in the field" and speak with people about vaccine hesitancy. Like it was just like, because people don't know because people

01:23:05.400 - 01:23:22.100

are not obsessively reading about this because they have like—You know, so it makes sense to me. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, were there any other topics or moments that you covered in

01:23:22.100 - 01:23:36.790

addition to the pandemic or I mean with the pandemic that were especially impactful for you? Or were you? Mainly just, yeah. I mean, the pandemic was like, I

01:23:36.900 - 01:23:52.500

mean, there was a lot of like crossed—like I said, I was covering unemployment, which is like pandemic related, right? Literally (DC) created the program called pandemic unemployment assistance, right? I was covering housing.

01:23:53.100 - 01:24:06.400

I was covering, like, the eviction, the looming eviction moratorium being lifted. I was covering a lot of that. I was covering—I was covering like, I mean, it was a social

01:24:06.400 - 01:24:18.200

determinants of health. Because I knew that like people weren't just obsessing over, whether or not they would catch COVID.

01:24:18.200 - 01:24:34.000

They were—or wanted to or they weren't obsessing— readers were not just curious about or nervous about whether or not they were going to catch COVID, they were nervous about whether or not they could, you know, like afford rent

01:24:34.000 - 01:24:51.700

or afford—for, like, what was happening with work? What was happening with metro? What was happening? Like readers are, you know, and my job as like, a general assignment reporter for the City Paper was to, you know, arm residents with

01:24:51.700 - 01:25:07.100

knowledge of like other facets of their life that weren't directly about the pandemic, if that make sense, right? Like so and then I, you know, and like stories, I was making sure to like, write about "Was this information like accessible to

01:25:07.100 - 01:25:25.600

like non-english speakers?" Like, there were just like, a lot of stories that weren't explicitly, like, back like, "This is the number of cases in DC today," right? Like the pandemic became I was like kind of looking at people

01:25:25.600 - 01:25:35.100

through this lens of the like, pandemic and then all of the other stuff, yeah. That's what happened. Yeah.

01:25:35.200 - 01:25:51.100

Yeah. I mean, you talked—I mean, yeah, especially, especially community journalists really had to cover how the disease and how, I mean, I wrote how the disease tore apart their communities but like how it

01:25:51.400 - 01:26:13.650

impacted their communities. Can you talk a little bit about how it impacted DC? From your perspective. I mean, we fared better than most other cities, states, but there

01:26:15.000 - 01:26:43.760

were more communities impacted, you know, depending on what ward you live in—I mean, in what community, you know. And I mean, I could tell you one building in DC that's been like, there were so many job losses in that one building next to me—like

01:26:43.800 - 01:26:56.400

they're my neighbors. There were job losses, there was rent insecurity because of that, like, while there was an eviction moratorium that, you know, it's now lifted and they knew that it

01:26:56.400 - 01:27:01.200

was going to be lifted. So the like anxiety they felt that way. And they also had death in that

01:27:01.200 - 01:27:13.010

building, someone who died of COVID. Like, I mean, it's great. So like while the numbers showed that like, DC fared better like me and the changed that building,

01:27:13.400 - 01:27:35.050

right? Like it was very devastating. And so I mean, yeah, I mean it obvious and obviously this virus is continuing to kill more—like there was it was one of the best—he's actually like, he's like a, he's very fascinating and I one

01:27:35.050 - 01:27:50.500

day want to write a story about this gentleman. He's a data cruncher and he created this website called DCcovid.com and he like analyzes the health data. And he is just so smart and I've spoken to him and we used to DM

01:27:50.500 - 01:28:03.050

all the time on Twitter. And he, anyways, the recent analysis just like of the 50 deaths that DC's experienced since June, 49 of those deaths have been of Black people.

01:28:03.050 - 01:28:17.010

Like it's fully disproportionately impacting like a segment and like 60 percent of those deaths were in wards like Ward 8. And like 50 is not a lot as compared to what another state with what Florida went through during the wave, this recent

01:28:17.010 - 01:28:23.800

surge. But it's still not nothing, and those are lives. And then like DC's, not that big,

01:28:24.100 - 01:28:38.100

you know, we're a city of 700 thousand people and like nearly 3,000 people have died like that's not nothing. Because it's hitting certain communities hard like it's yeah, I am.

01:28:39.700 - 01:28:51.810

It's very upsetting. Also, I mean those are deaths and like there's also kind of isolation of that impacts people like, people are so—kind of parents are still like anxious about their kids.

01:28:51.810 - 01:29:03.580

I hear from parents even though I'm not a local reporter still about them being anxious about, you know, sending their kids to school and not being vaccinated. It's just yeah, I mean it's still

01:29:03.580 - 01:29:22.200

not over, obviously. Yeah, definitely. Well, I wanted to I wanted to do these interviews specifically with a journalist because of burnout that journalism has kind of gone

01:29:22.200 - 01:29:41.700

through a lot of, a lot of journalists have gone through. And we talked a little bit about that kind of make the, I mean, how burnout has affected you. I guess my first kind of question

01:29:41.700 - 01:30:03.600

is how are you, exercising self care? How have you not gotten burned out—like totally burned out? So I was definitely like, I was definitely burned out like during—I mean, I noticed it because I would I became more

01:30:03.600 - 01:30:15.700

irritable, sure, during the pandemic like it was like my tolerance. It was funny, I never, I don't think I let it impact my job, like I was never short with sources,

01:30:15.700 - 01:30:26.500

but I became very short like my family and friends at points because I was kind of, you know, just talked out and then they want to talk. There was a moment where I stopped

01:30:26.500 - 01:30:43.900

just doing Zoom chats because I was just tired of, like, talking to people, because I was just like, (unintelligible). So I don't think—there was no, there was no, like, real cure for it, but I would try—I became like an active runner during the

01:30:43.900 - 01:30:53.500

pandemic. I was never—hated running. Now, I'm like, I still like will run three times a week now. I needed to get out of my head.

01:30:53.500 - 01:31:02.900

I was already like very— I'm a certified yoga instructor, like I got my certification before the pandemic hit. But yoga wasn't helping.

01:31:04.000 - 01:31:12.700

I got more into like high intensity, things. Like I needed to run away. (laughs) So um, I became an avid runner, I'm very into pilates.

01:31:13.540 - 01:31:24.100

I can be very intense with exercise. Like five times a week—I mean not five—six times a week like sometimes seven.

01:31:24.100 - 01:31:36.900

Like, I just—I need to be active because I'm so high-strung that I need to exhaust myself to like, go to bed. I also, I will admit that I'm like, have to drink a glass of wine every day.

01:31:36.900 - 01:31:46.300

It was very—like in the pandemic was like, all right, how do I come down from this? Oh, well, a glass of bourbon. Like that was like, I needed to

01:31:46.300 - 01:31:59.580

have a strong drink, a stiff drink. I started getting anxious, actually, I was like, "Oh, I'm having—should I be concerned in some way?" And my therapist was like, "No, you're fine." Anyways.

01:32:01.300 - 01:32:16.800

Yeah, and I mean you have talked a lot about your therapist. Has therapy, has that, been a help? Yeah, I'm sad, we are now going monthly. Well, we got one monthly because she's out of network, when I

01:32:16.800 - 01:32:30.200

started at Kaiser Health News. But also, like I said, I kind of have no longer producing or not as—Some reporters are still like in the thick of it, like are still, you know, it hasn't changed

01:32:30.200 - 01:32:37.300

for them. It's changed for me, immensely. Like again, once DC—I'm no longer a local reporter, so I think that's changed, which is strange because my job is like, I felt

01:32:37.300 - 01:32:47.400

like my job has gotten easier now that I'm a full-time, healthcare reporter. But that's because Kaiser Health News is very mindful—they are very mindful of burnout and stuff like

01:32:47.400 - 01:33:04.100

that, like they give up a lot of time and a lot of like—There's not—it's not the same, like simpler time crunch with Kaiser as it was with City Paper. But anyways, um, yeah, I was

01:33:04.100 - 01:33:14.350

seeing my therapist like weekly during the pandemic, and that helped. Sometimes I would have to cancel though honestly, because I was just, I was like, I can't.

01:33:14.350 - 01:33:33.500

Which is shitty, but I would try really hard to see her weekly and now I'm monthly because she's out of network and she's expensive. Yeah, cool. And if I mean we keep saying like

01:33:33.600 - 01:33:48.600

we're post pandemic and like I mean as you emphasized, we're not post pandemic. We are still in a pandemic, but I know that scientists, healthcare workers and even journalists are

01:33:48.600 - 01:34:02.800

looking towards the next pandemic. So if you could talk to the reporters of the next pandemic, what is one or two pieces of advice? Would you give them?

01:34:13.600 - 01:34:39.400

If you're going to report on a government's recommendation or response to something, get a, get a public healthcare—public health experts two cents. Because while it might seem "Oh,

01:34:39.500 - 01:34:54.500

yeah, that seems like a smart idea," get someone who knows healthcare to, like, comment if you can. There's a like (pressure to) publish, publish but like you want to be accurate and you want contextualize, because it's not

01:34:54.500 - 01:35:04.700

helpful if you don't do that. I'd also say and also another like kind of technical thing would be: not every public health expert is an epidemiologist or infectious disease expert.

01:35:04.800 - 01:35:17.550

Some of those are not interchangeable things. And so, look at people's experience. Like, yeah, I've seen so many journalists misidentify public health experts as epidemiologists and they're not that.

01:35:19.300 - 01:35:29.400

So that's another thing. I would just have like, someone might— and I, you know, you get a lot of PR people who are telling you like, "Here are a list of experts that you can reach out

01:35:29.400 - 01:35:42.900

to." Like, look at them, google them, see what's their specialty is, because they could be just interested in, you know, becoming the next leading expert in something and being reported all over everywhere.

01:35:45.600 - 01:36:01.260

Are there any other pieces of advice that you give them? To those two are really helpful. In terms of covering a pandemic, like, be critical, and yes, always and don't rush—that you don't have

01:36:01.260 - 01:36:10.920

to rush to publish. Like that's, I don't know, there's like a rapid response, but like you want—and this is just—just value accuracy and context.

01:36:14.100 - 01:36:26.800

Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Well, is there any other questions that you wish I would've asked? You did a really—you covered a

01:36:26.800 - 01:36:33.850

lot. No, I mean, I think that—I think we done did it. Yeah.

01:36:34.200 - 01:36:44.130

Cool. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to do this interview today. Your interview has been very informative— I hope so.

01:36:44.130 - 01:36:50.800

I mean, I feel like—I hope I made sense, sometimes I was like—(gestures about, to imply that she was all over the place). Absolutely. It will be a valuable contribution

01:36:50.800 - 01:36:57.900

in the future for understanding the COVID pandemic. So I'm gonna turn off the recording now. Well, thank you.