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Today is October 22nd, 2020 and this is Shae Corey interviewing Arren Mills on the platform Their Story and just before we begin, just to clarify: Do I have permission to record this interview? Yes. Great. Okay. So my first question for you and we can talk about your job, too, and what you do, but just tell me little bit about you. Sure.Sure. I feel like that's a packed question and I'll try to answer it very shortly. So I am Arren Mills. I live in Jacksonville Florida. I am a mother of two beautiful daughters. They are about one and almost three. In my spare time, I am birth photographer and a Doula. A new Doula. just got trained so that can start doing it. Kind of like being in and around births I really started being a birth photographer. I want to say it launched during Covid because of all the restrictions of people going to hospitals and not being able to have their partners at first lot of people opted into doing home births. So I really wanted to document what that shift look like and as a big advocate of natural or like home births instead of going hospital births and unnecessary cesareans. I wanted to make sure that I captured that so just like you, a historian, just through pictures.

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Yeah. I love that. Thanks. My mom--I think told you this my mom was midwife. Yeah!

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Yeah, she would love to hear that, she's a big natural birth woman. So can explain a little about what being a doula entails? Sure, so doulas are--well, it really depends on... it's so difficult to explain! But okay, so doulas can be skills-based but they are supposed to be emotional support for women during labor. So midwives are different from doulas in that midwives deal with the medical aspects is like the easy way to explain it and doulas they are focused specifically on the mother. So even after the baby is born their focus is still on the mother. So you can have Doulas for different parts of pregnancy and postpartum so like during pregnancy, during the birth and definitely postpartum which a lot of people don't know about because postpartum is the most difficult time especially in that first year. So doulas are there for emotional support. Yeah, and what initially sparked your interest or made you want to do that? Sure, so I guess it's so difficult to explain. I guess like during my pregnancy people always raved about how awesome it is to be pregnant and that you don't really understand what it's like to be a woman until you're pregnant and I just had a dreadful experience.

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Oh no! I was like, I'm puking all the time, I don't feel like myself. I feel heavy, everything hurts. It sounds like I was a complainer, but it just wasn't for me. Compared to like lot people, and after doing so much research on it because before you have a birth center birth or home birth, have to have an educational class and they teach you depending on where you go a lot of evidence based material for birthing and like why they pick this over that and so you get to really choose your own after being educated which I liked a lot and so I also wanted to--well after I had my kids and my friends started having kids and so just sharing this information felt really good because I feel like lot people don't talk about it. They just talk about how beautiful pregnancy is, but they don't get into the nitty and gritty and the details which feel like if a lot of women had or had access to they would have at least better births than like or better pregnancies than I did. So I really just like that you can be educated and have access to that and then pick your choice, which I'm all about. Yeah, I love that. We can definitely circle back to that but kind of to back it up a little bit. I'm just so interested in what you do. I love it. I think it's so cool. Oh, thanks!

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Did you grow up in Jacksonville or in Florida or where did grow up? Sure. I definitely was born and raised mostly in Jacksonville. I think lived in Maryland for like a fourth of my life. Not trying to put my age out there, but guess you have to know it anyway, so yeah, it's just mainly here in Jacksonville. And then I went to college at UF. Lived there for all three and a half years and then moved to the Philippines to do research on anti-human trafficking and I lived there for about nine months. And right before I left I was proposed to, so then came back and got married and then we've just been in Jacksonville ever since. I have to hear that story of when you went over there and he proposed to you. Oh it was weird. We were dating for two...maybe two years and then I had to go and do research in the Philippines and it was going to be basically nine months of me gone and he didn't...He didn't like not putting a ring on it. And then me leaving for nine months. So right like the day before I left he like gathered all my friends and proposed at this park that we live like seconds away from now. And yeah, and so we did most of our proposal when I was away, or the engagement I mean, and then when I came back we finished planning and got married. So yeah super quick.

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I love that, though. That's so cute. I love that you were leaving. He was like nuh-uh, not without my ring! It's weird because I couldn't even bring the ring with me. It was just like that. I'm sure he felt better about it though. Yeah, he definitely felt better.

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That's so funny. So growing up in Jacksonville, was that because your parents worked there? It's lot of family, let me trail back to my deep, deep memories as well. I believe. Okay, so my grandmother was a mother of I always get this number wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's 16 children. It could be 16 or 14. I've never met all of my aunts and uncles I know four of them probably and it's because they lived in Jacksonville and Jacksonville was just the first guess area that my grandmother could come too. So I think our journey to America all all started With one of my older aunts who got married to a man who is in military and then they came over and then they petition for my grandmother to come over and my mom is the youngest of the 14 or 16. And so she brought my mom with her and my mom was like 18 and I'm pretty sure it's because of the Naval Base here in Jacksonville. So I think that's how we came over here. Wow, so your mom came over at 18 from the Philippines. And so did she ever talk about what that transition was like for her at all? Oh, yeah. I can remember her telling me how different was so she had to get so they didn't transfer a lot of the credits over from like the Philippines. So that was like strange and she had to get like a GED equivalent even though she passed with flying colors. It was still like a I just barely did it kind of thing and then yeah, I feel like she just had problems at first. I feel like she was...I don't know how to say this properly. But like she she just loved the freedom and so she would go out and that's how she met my dad, is like they met at a little like Filipino get-together and I guess from there, it was history. They met. They had me. They got married. I think she had me at 20 so she'd been here for like two years before she was actually married.

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And yeah, that's super cool. So in thinking about your parents, what do you think? Do you think that their parenting style influenced you at all as a parent? Woo, influenced I feel like yeah, would be a good word because I wouldn't say that I benefitted from their parenting style. So to like understand that a little my parents divorced at like 9 and so for most my life, it was my mom being a single mom and and yeah, I think my mom tried her hardest to compensate for know, not having a father there as present. like we would go and visit him every year as much as we could but obviously like during the school year was a lot for her. So I saw my mom's strain from like going to school as like a dental assistant working full-time and taking us to school and work and if we had things for after school activities you would like take us and it was yeah, it was difficult to see like your Mom struggle and to try to grow up little faster so that you can promise to like take care of her and so I started working like really early want say like I started working at 16 and then there was a point in high school where I had two jobs and even in college, I was still working a lot and sending money back home to my mom just because of that Dynamic and so yeah, appreciate everything that my mom did because she was single mom and she worked so hard it definitely influenced me to dream big and to get into college and try to land like a dream job. And yeah, I would say that her work ethic definitely inspired me to work hard. I really wish though retrospectively. A reflecting that I didn't have to grow up as fast and so I like cherish all of the small things that I have with my girls now and I really hope that that I am able to make it little less. I don't want to say like terrible terrible is like a huge word but a little less like shocking and more of like a phasing into life, but we'll see how that goes there. So young. Yeah, so does your mom still live in Jacksonville near you or so? Yes in a sense. So my mom is currently because of like the system. She work has worked like incredibly hard for all of her jobs and like has each time got gotten laid off or or she just like tried to move on to another job so much so that she has worked herself and I feel like because of all of trauma like leading up to it. She has she does have a mental instability and so that's been difficult. Trying to get her help. mean we've tried to in Florida. You can Baker Act but it's difficult when they're not at actual address or location and she's been living out of her car for I want to say like she elected into living into her car for like a year. So it I really don't know where she is. And it's difficult because everybody in our family knows that she needs help and we've tried every Source even contacting, you know, the mental health office in Jacksonville that has been a relationship. I wish I didn't have because of how difficult it is to get help for people that actually need help. So yeah, that's that definitely goes into like protesting and wishing that we had more money for mental health issues when I guess we'll go into that a lot more but for right now she is still in her car and refuses to have contact with us and it is definitely because of I want to say a mental instability and just like influences from people who do a Use drug, so it's sad. try not to think about it a lot because much I can do but do miss her. It's just a real thing. Yeah. Well, in thinking about your family and your children tell me a little bit about your own family dynamic. Sure. [Background noise] Once again, they tried to pop open the door. Hello. Can she be in here for this if she's really quiet or okay. Okay. So in our family this is Elle, she is our outspoken one year old. She loves FaceTiming social reactor. But if she gets too loud, you can just ask me to repeat and also she is still breastfeeding. So our family is...I guess we're still learning exactly how we're operating because we're still a really young family but we have two toddlers. They're both under three. So as you can imagine, it's very hectic. My husband, his name is Michael and he works for a financial company and does IT work he's explained multiple times I don't I still don't know how explain it it but since Covid he's been working from home. So we've been trying to navigate that way to Toddlers and me also trying to do entrepreneurship from home before our two girls came to us. He was still at this job I was doing marketing and All team and content for various companies and so I just transition out of that throughout pregnancy and postpartum in another pregnancy to do things that I like. So more creative work and still touching. I still do a lot of Consulting for businesses that I believe in instead of it just being Being a random business that makes millions of dollars. So Consulting for businesses that are local and black-owned. And yeah, so that's mean that's like our work life as far as like family. So we try to adapt and natural parenting method. So lot of lot of things that we didn't have we as in Michael Primary and didn't have growing up is an explanation of like why we don't do things which even though they're really young. Now, it helps to explain why to not do something or to suggest something else than just hearing. No, you can't do that. So we've been doing that a lot and even as toddlers grow up we see how difficult it is for them to just catch on to to to language and how to express themselves and what emotions their feelings so definitely talking about all these emotions and you know what they might be feeling and why they might be feeling that so they know and so Evie my eldest who's almost three can tell us, know, when she's upset and it's not just like crying she'll say I'm sad or I'm mad. Then we'll ask why so it just helps a lot for her to understand those emotions. We live in a...I guess a hipper part of Jacksonville a lot of newer families live in this neighborhood.[Aside to child: Can you not touch please, Mommy is talking on it.] It's a newer part of Jacksonville. It's not really new but definitely.A lot more into our families live here and it's really awesome because they're like new shops that we can walk to a bunch of coffee shops and bars if you knew but just a really nice neighborhood. So we get to walk the girls and have a lot of outside time and even in the midst of covid. So yeah, I think we're a rather new family we're just trying to figure out our groove and what works we definitely have our Downs for both kids and parents it's very difficult to try to navigate what we like personally. What we like personally... [Aside to child: You don't want me to hold you. I think you're gonna have to sit with Daddy if can be quiet. Is that okay? Want to go find him? Do you want this toy? Welcome?] So yeah, let me actually go hand her off. They like switch something off in my brain and I can't focus. Is that okay?

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You're so good. You may still hear her crying, but at least now it's not so close. She's so cute. Thank you.

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I love her hair. Oh its something else, they were born with really thick black hair and if you see like my partner he has like really thick black hair for a guy, it's just so thick and my hair is really thick so it just makes sense. Yeah, so thinking about your children. When did you have your first child? This is gonna kill me huh? Hmm, I think 20 about like yeah 25 is when I had my first child, and I know my mom had me around 20, 21 and I still felt. If I felt on younger side because a lot of my friends at that time, we're not having babies and friends. I am talking about people who I went college with and also we're like current work friends and even women who were maybe like 5 to 10 years older. We're not having their kids. So I felt really young and I also had no knowledge as far as Giving birth, obviously, I mean I love kids and loved hanging around. I was nannying a lot as a side job as well. So is it was scary.

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Definitely, yeah, and so know that we had talked little bit about your pregnancy not being the best but what was the birth experience like for you? Definitely a mix and I would say that for both. They were different. My first one happened so quickly. I don't think I even had time to process. At 3 a.m. my water had broken and then rushed the birth center, which was like 30 minutes away and I had the best Midwife she has this like very sweet voice and she has this Irish, yeah Irish accent. And she was just so sweet and so calm and so obviously I had Michael there and he was a great support as far as I had lot of back labor pain. So applying pressure to that region will help a lot during contractions. So I had him do that and I had her just like talk to me and just sit with me which was really good. There are lot of thoughts that first time moms have and it kind of goes with the birth experience. So at first it's like fear and then once you overcome the fear like baby starts coming and progressing more and then you get you gained a little confidence and then for some reason like fear comes back and it's so it's like wiping away those fears and it's literally mentally telling your self or mentally. I want to say tricking almost I'd learned that if you say something like 37 times, you'll start believing it and so a lot of times especially like during my births. I had to say out loud like I can do it, I can do it, I can do it. And so just getting into the groove of believing in yourself so that you can push a human out and I did mine unmedicated, mostly because I'm scared of big needles and also hearing about like the side effects. Obviously it helped a lot, what is it called the epidural but getting that just scared me and I didn't know this like going in but I have like a very high anxiety for person. So I was never really diagnosed with high anxiety and never affected my work. Negatively. I feel like it did a reverse it like force me to being a hard worker which I would not say is positive. It definitely still takes toll. So the birth experience for the most part was good. was very anxious. Is most of the time and even postpartum? Very very more so anxious for my second birth. And then a lot of people told that was going to a lot quicker because had my birth almost like in 3 or 4 hours the first time and they said like oh second time moms, like it comes out like so much quicker you're in labor for Less a lot less longer or a lot less whatever and so but I labored for like 10 hours. Yeah, it was much longer and I was like, what is this baby coming and like how did my body forget and so it like lot of betrayal and I also felt so much guilt for some reason they say like your hormones are everywhere, but feel like every mom who has more than one kid experiences that transition from 1 to 2, and how you Just like especially in my case. I just got a little baby and she was one and a half at the time and now I was putting like taking all my attention away. And now going to have to give it to this new baby and having her understand emotionally that like I'm not abandoning her. So just thinking through all those emotions and what EV could be feeling though. She may not be able to say all of that think was Giving me so much anxiety. But so just dealing with that during the birth. I feel like there was part that I broke down and was like, can't do it. Like I can't have another baby. Like, how can I do this to Evie? And so I was like, I don't know how to love two kids. Like I only know how to love one of them and take care of one of them and I was saying all of these things out loud and then I realize how ridiculous it might sound to someone outside of like that exact moment. And now even I'm like wow how silly of me like it's obvious that your heart grows and you love both of them equally in different ways. So it was very difficult the second time around and I think I've made a decision along with my partner that I won't be birthing for long time. And so attending other people's births gives me that energy it's to say Like okay, like maybe my birth experience wasn't so bad and I could be open to it in a couple of years. Just right now, I'm very closed. Yeah. Did you feel pretty supported by your community or your family after you gave birth? Yeah, I would say so we had this thing called take them a meal and people would take us a meal. I was very, very much a hypochondriac I forget which is the term. Oh, yes. And so I didn't want anybody near the baby because of like we had Evie during flu season. So I was like everybody needs wash their hands and then sanitize and then they can't breathe on her. And so I was working with that along with high anxiety. So had postpartum anxiety to where I would have anxiety attacks and also for instance because of my work in the Philippines with anti-trafficking and hearing a lot of those stories and how a lot of them start with young Filipino girls. And coming with two terms with having a young Filipino girl. I feel like having that background. I just was so hyper sensitive to how people reacted to her any males that came of into this space. I was just a little more protective even if it was, you know, like Michael's brother for some reason. I just had this instinct to say like Don't touch her. I'll hold her. And so even I just felt like I couldn't go for a walk without my partner because I felt like somebody was going to kidnap me like all these thoughts. It's strange because they say it's just like your instinct working so that you can protect the baby and obviously it is anxiety because you're worrying about things that will probably are not likely to happen. However, I didn't hear anybody talking about this. I only heard of things like postpartum depression and never felt like I cried but it wasn't to point to where I felt. Like I couldn't take care of baby. All wanted to do is take care of baby and I was over. Overdoing it in most cases. For instance. I would every time got the car. didn't want to drive because couldn't reach her so I would sit in the back and literally watch her chest to see if she was breathing during nap time like a couldn't be separated from her. I had to like feel her breathing. And times where I've tried I've like peaked and like you it's what you literally just stared at them and was like are you breathing? Okay. And so it was just this hyperactive sense of fear. And so I dealt with that postpartum and was scared to tell a lot of people except for my Midwife and my midwife at both the 6 Mark. Well, they have like a two-day check and then a six-week check so that both they were telling me that it was okay that it was a lot of things Moms experience in the beginning. A lot of people don't experience postpartum depression, but they may have this extra anxiety, especially if they have a you know a traumatic Childhood or experience and so I felt very supported in that. It was really good hearing it from people who deal and meet with pregnant people and postpartum people all the time. So that was good and I also felt like my partner even though he didn't know what to do and he was working a lot that he was still very sensitive to the fact that I wasn't myself. I know you can hear them. So I felt very good and then my...so that was before my mom decided to live alone, but she would like come and babysit and so did Michael's mom. They are both actually in Jacksonville. So that helps a lot. We actually go and see Michael's mom once a week just so that they can have that relationship and we can have at least one day off. So yeah, I felt very supported even when I was transitioning back to work. I think the first time it was around five months, so trying to transition an infant from breastfeeding to the bottle. Like our mothers helped lot and that helped, and then we hired a nanny for three days. And that's all we could afford to pay them like really well and then for the other two days of the week, we had both moms just like come and spend a day. So that worked out really well and we were really fortunate to have that so it was good. I feel like we had very great community.

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That's so good. I'm so glad. So what do you wish you would have known before you became a mom? Oh. There are lot of things I think from like the material side. So a lot of things that was worried about before pregnancy was not having enough stuff, which know is like no matter what your socio-economic class is like that's always a worry like am I getting the right things like what can I get that's actually going to help do I need to try all of them and a lot of it is trial and error, but wish Didn't freak out about all of the things that I could have had. I feel like spent so much time like researching and trying to like get the best one and then we finally got it and put baby in it and baby was like, I don't like it or I'm indifferent and I was like, wow, we spent all that hard work to like make money to buy this and it wasn't even worth it. And also don't know. just wish that like all of these things that are actually helpful didn't come at a price point that people felt like was unaffordable or just you know, you don't know. I feel like there a lot of luxury items that I wish I had and I felt like it sucks to even have it because a lot of people don't even have access to something like that. So that's that was like a hard struggle to so I wish I had a list of things that actually worked and I didn't have to like spend all this time thinking about that and I did benefit a lot from birthing classes. So I even and I think that helped lot with understanding where a doula steps in and how a Midwife is helpful but I like only wish that women had access to that even if they have like hospital birth so that they understand evidence-based things like vaccines or like which vaccines they can opt out of and still be safe. It's all it's all about choice in those instances and I feel like it's the best way to exercise your choice because it affects somebody that you love and so you're very cognizant and conscious about the effects. So I only...if anybody is listening I would just suggest if you're having a kid to research birth classes and maybe in those classes you'll get a better list than I did. And how do you think that becoming a mom changed you as an individual? Wow, I think you might be sitting here for days. If I change my answer that and full it's strange. I feel like was just talking to another mom who is postpartum. Like I was doing her postpartum shoot would like her body and just like accepting it and how when you birthed a human she was telling me that you literally give a piece of yourself. So it's okay to feel like you're not the same person that you were before birth because you've literally given away. I think it's like 33 percent of your brain cells you give to this kid. So that's why you have like Mom brain where you like forget where your phone is, which is what do on the daily, but so any changes, I feel like I'm not as conservative as I used to be like I used to have a lot of thoughts on abortions. Let's say and how you know in the Catholic faith, which is like what I identify with is, you know abortions are wrong and then you don't go any further and I feel like after having two girls who could potentially need an abortion. I don't know like what the future holds but if they needed one. Like I would want them to know that I would want to be there. Like I wouldn't want them to hide it for me. So after understanding like that and how it could potentially affect my girls. I was like, maybe I just need to learn more about abortions and like really what the different nuances are because it's not going be black and white and I feel like now I am a lot people would say...I mean Catholics have asked me if I'm still Catholic because I say that now, I think that abortion should be a choice or that we should have contraceptives to prevent abortions and that is just like new for a lot of Catholics to understand and I think there may have been like so many Catholics who have thought that before but like just never heard it and I think it's because lot of people shut it down when they say like, oh, no abortions are wrong. It's like well. Now can say like yeah, you might feel that way. But because we don't have X Y and Z is why they need an abortion. So we have to backtrack and find a solution which before I feel like before having kids. Like there was black-and-white solution every time and then, you know, you have kids and you learned these nuances and you understand that, know stuff happens. And so advocating for the choice or the voice to say what you want to say without feeling that you need to hide or without any negative repercussions. I feel I feel so strongly about that now and I feel like after having two girls which girls again are them are very marginalized in society, especially in like the Christian and Catholic world that I would not want them to undergo the scrutiny that I feel like I have undergone and so making them understand, essential parts of their body. Even just like not giving their body parts a pet name like actually saying this is your vagina and nobody is allowed to touch your vagina like things like that. I feel like I didn't know or didn't talk about a lot before I was a parent, but definitely the deeper I go into Parenthood. I understand that there are no direct answer is that I feel like they have to do a lot of searching and research on their own to make their best educated decision on it. So it's going to very difficult. Once they become teenagers and say they want ice cream in it and have to find their evidence to prove that they need ice cream at the time. I feel like I'd be raising those kinds of adult. But yeah, I would say it definitely changed me into being more of a what people call a feminist, what people call an activist, what people call a crazy liberal. It's just...it's just so different when you have someone who can be affected by the system. So yeah complete change.

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Yeah, so would you say that becoming a mother being a mother motivates lot of your activism? Oh, yes for sure. I think I think of why I attended a lot of those protests I think of why I voice and a lot people will say that I'm like a very strong voice on social media and it's because in a lot of my statuses and posts I talk about being a parent and how it really opens your eyes to like will I not love my kid if my kid decides to be part of the lgbtq a or qia community. No, I'd still love them very much and I want to support them. Well, I stopped loving my child if they you know had unprotected sex and is now pregnant. No, I would want them to be like would want them to feel comfortable for me to be there and to like hold their hand through the process and help them make a decision that could help their lives. I I really can't understand when people just believe that: Oh, well, if someone who I love very dearly has this strong feeling or does this mistake like they're automatically out of my life. Even with my mother who we've tried and tried again to reconnect with like I have no hard feelings against her. I feel like it's and don't want say like, I blame the system but the system obviously isn't helping us any any differently than it would like it just there being no system. I don't know I have strong feelings about that. So it's it definitely helps lot of my activism. I feel like it's like the number one reason is because I don't want people to abuse my kids. Yeah. Yeah, so in thinking about the protest and everything which one or ones did you go to, and what was that experience like for you? Yeah, so I went to a lot of the first couple ones in Jacksonville. It was the feeling of being there. It felt like surreal like I was watching myself through a movie screen. I don't know how to explain it. just felt like an out-of-body experience and not to say that it was a positive or a negative thing, but it definitely felt surreal, which is kind of sad say being that know, all we are doing is protesting. So the first couple of ones that I've attended that attended where shortly after the George Floyd and The Arbor a cases or like them being in the news and for some reason I wasn't so alert about other cases like the Philando Castile case. Like I feel like I briefly remember seeing that case but not have any Gusto about it? And it must been like I'm saying it like it could be a combination of just like being in the house or or actually being a parent and understanding like what because now I hear the fillet no Castle Story I'm like, how did not want to do anything then because if that would happen to my partner and I had my daughter in the backseat like how would I react so definitely feel like that connects to the last question about being a parent during this time, but so the first couple protests I didn't bring my kids. Well, I still don't bring my kids just because of how quickly things can go and I've always, because of my anxiety. I'm the person that always thinks of exit plans like before I get there and look for all passive like possible routes of escape and so in doing that every single time, I've never brought my kids and it didn't help that even in Jacksonville there were cases of Jacksonville police tear-gassing, you know kids as young as 11, so was like, I'm definitely not mentally ready to traumatize my kids because of you know, at time felt like my selfishness to attend protest and even like when I met other parents out there like they chose to I mean met one other parent that brought her kid, but even the other ones they chose to leave their kids at home. Because of that fact because it couldn't they would feel so guilty if they got tear gassed, which is like still crazy for me to think of that, you know in Jacksonville in a hometown that I've lived in, that police tear gas children. So I went to the big first one and that big first one was when we had like curfew they like we're saying that protesters were burning down a police car went to that one. I left right before the police car burning happened. But my friends that I went with were right across the street when it happened. And so I feel like I've been to maybe four or five in total and each time. It just hit home because a lot of it wasn't just George Floyd anymore. It was you know, Jamie Johnson who is from Jacksonville, Florida who was shot at think it was like stop sign for no reason and you know Leah Baker who was killed because of a mental instability and didn't handle it any better. And so just like diving into each of these police cases from the outside and not trying to have any crazy bias, but obviously there is an abuse of power and to understand that it doesn't matter where you live. I mean, it does in most cases but even in the Leah Baker case, she was a white female...but police abuse their power and they don't, they don't try to understand or they can't have the empathy to not shoot people. It's really strange. Something was obviously wrong with Leah Baker. I think the story goes she stopped her medicines and you know, she had stabbed cop and so they shot her multiple times and even after they launched a police dog on her and so just the brutality and all of that makes me fear for my girls because what if you know, they're they're having a mental episode or even my mom at this point. God forbid, I ever get a call that know, my mom passed away during a police encounter because we all know how that would go. I would just be one sided and there's a police story would stick and obviously there'd be no witnesses because you know, they...I'm trying to say this as as unbiased as possible. But obviously I have bias if I'm going to these protests, so it's very difficult for me to try to talk through these feelings, but I do feel strongly in the fact that people are limited by police power and that it's not just, you know, police getting extra money. It's like police killing people and those people not having any type of defense. We're basically helpless and it kind ofsucks. It sucks really terribly because I wouldn't want that to happen to my kids is what think of all the time as if I got a call from anybody that said that my my babies were shot by the police. It doesn't matter like how old they are the fact that I understand the abuse of power and that my child will a hundred percent probably be unarmed.It...it's chilling. I really hate thinking about it a lot. I have such a crazy imagination. I could like see everything when I close my eyes and it's not good for me to go down that lane. But when I do go down it it does make me frustrated and really wish that all of the families that have undergone it didn't have to undergo that type of pain.

00:53:08.700 - 01:09:00.600

So in kind of thinking about that, how did you feel at the protest? Yeah. I would say the first one, the first one where we were marching around town with everybody and chanting together. It did feel like this huge like strong sense of community like with I'm literally standing and fighting with people who think like me and I feel it like it felt great. I feel like you don't get that as a someone as woman a lot. Like there aren't lot of affirmations for a woman unless you are a woman so especially as a an Asian woman, it still felt really good, especially with the stereotypes that work against us. I felt there are lot of times when you know during a protest they have someone like share stories and talk or share like pieces of work like poems or stories or songs and each time, I felt like I was on the verge of \crying just like it feels like a big anxious like block sitting on your chest like tears never actually felt it just felt like fuel was starting my chest and like don't know how else to explain it was probably like close to like when you have like an anxiety attack just like all this tension like those in your chest and it was because I felt so much in that moment for families and for the kids that they have lost. The last couple of times because of Covid they did some car protests and those felt like a little bit different you're not like being shoulder-to-shoulder with people and chanting but still like seeing the rows of cars and the time that people put into voicing like what they believe in like writing their car like making signs or you know, there was this person who this white business owner who like makes these flags, they're beautiful, but they're huge huge huge flagstaffs and they have these big various flags at that was a like black lives matter just like have the iconic black lives matter fist on it. And just so it's overwhelming to see those people because it does feel like a lot of people because of covid and not seeing a lot of people in long time but comparatively in Jacksonville, since Jackson was home to like 10,000 plus seeing even that small group of people is enlightening. It's nice to see, for me, that there aren't just black people there that there are people from all different communities all different thought processes like we're beliefs. So it's really cool to see that but I usually feel like really really good at protests and then like it when get home, I'm like really really exhausted. It'll be like four hours and I was like, oh I was there for four hours or like it'll be like in the middle the day in the hot sun in Florida. I'm like, wow, I just got like sunburned and I didn't even realize like definitely I love just connecting with people even though it could be over like something really sad. I'm not saying that I was like happy the entire time there, but definitely just being able to sit with people who are vulnerable who just...yeah, they just are. I don't know like that another or to say besides like how I don't know. If for instance if I were a parent grieving, don't know how I could stand in front of a lot people and share their story especially would like how mean like it makes sense to do it like in their name, but also like I have a lot of emotions and it would just be difficult to like recant or like recount that in front of people million times, but definitely yeah, I just have so much respect for parents that I guess I can do that and fight and it's so great to see them you know, honor someone that they love. And for other people to just support that I feel like that's all we need in a community like if we had this support from everyone that there wouldn't be so many problems that we have just that connection. Yeah, kind of circling back to something that you said about being an Asian woman and being a Filipino woman what types of like maybe racial prejudice or stereotyping have you experienced in your own life? Oh, yeah, mean there's there are a bunch and so where to even begin I guess a big one is Filipinos marrying white men. They could be from America from Europe from Australia. But a lot of stereotypes are that women to get out of the Philippines marry out and up and most times that they do that. It'll be like a catfish situations or like they marry and then as soon as we get to the place, like they you know break off or do whatever so that she's just there. So there's that stereotype and though it may be held true. It's for some situations. It's not like the biggest or it isn't completely true. For instance like Michael's Mom married a white man, and she doesn't rely on his money like she works her own and think she does that to try to defeat The Stereotype that she's spending his money. So I know that she actively Works to say like, know, this is my money I worked for this because there are people that abuse it so there's that there's the you know Asian fetish where Asian women are seen as more exotic which gets exhausting especially being even in just like more recent weddings I've attended as a photographer and I guess it's that I still probably look like a teenager but just like to it's just annoying to be seen as like the catch because I'm Asian like I'm also very intelligent. I'm also, you know a mother who works really hard which, you know people don't care about so often. And so there's that one. It's being like a an Asian woman. So I've worked when did like content marketing. I worked under white male CEOs who for instance. We're just trying make brand for themselves and I would say for both instances I've been gaslighted and even like one of them where I was trying to explain something they were like, "Oh, no, you're completely wrong about that." But it's strange because they don't have a degree in marketing or advertising and so it's just difficult to like be seen as somebody who understands and like is thought leader in that space of a because I'm so young or you know hip that I can't be taken seriously. Sorry hip is not the best word, but just young, like Millennial. That was something they always called me it was like, oh it's the millennial marketer. So that was very annoying. Other ones I guess a big one that like really hits home with me, especially after the Philippines and I've read of mentioned this a lot and by Philippines, I mean my research for anti-trafficking the Philippines is white men mostly so yeah, we're mostly white men coming to the Philippines for sex tourism and feel like one of the worst stories I've ever heard was and they've happened many times is like mothers having babies and selling them as young as like a newborn to white males, you know for their pleasure and so that part really hurts because I understand. I understand the dynamic like women do that because they need money. And so once you're living off of like survival instincts, like it doesn't matter who like what comes out of you and like you don't have the capacity to or the freedom or the choice to think about love and so you just think about survival and so you're only thinking about yourself so I feel for mothers and that they do there, but I'm also equally as upset with the mothers and how they betray like their own loved ones and this happens in a lot of cases in the Philippines and I feel like the biggest case there was this I don't even remember saying try not to but there was a man who basically torture like nine-month-old for sexual pleasure. And there was a Filipino woman like assisting and like Grant like trying to help in getting him more and more kids who is native and so he used her to get these toddlers and they were all like...when you...when I see the pictures of them all I can see is my little kids because I mean they look very similar and so even in times where I'm just like looking at the innocence of like Evie and Elle like I'm admiring them when they sleep for some reason I think of like that that particular story and how like people look at this innocence and they're like, I'm going to exploit it and hate that I think of that but it makes me fight so so so much harder for them. So I really really abhor when men in particular come up to me and tell me how beautiful my girls are. I feel like it's like an automatic red flag and just walk away. I don't even have like time to smile anymore. I'm just like on to whatever else so it's so hard to be in those small conversations with people because I mean I can be seen as like a bitch in most cases, but just at my very best trying to protect them because we all know that like there's obviously like sex tourism happening but a lot of sexual assault cases like happen within the family and you know, I've dealt with that myself with a babysitter and also a step-uncle just like gaining trust and taking advantage of that. So I guess that is my reason for being so alert to you know, male relatives and why it's so difficult for us to find a babysitter. So I just...it doesn't matter like what sex all like they can be like just don't trust other people in close proximity with my kids because it because of that traumatizing experience. So yeah, a lot of those stereotypes like feed into my own personal trauma, which makes me I feel like a hyper Vigilant and helicopter parent, but also I feel like it makes me always fear that it's like too much and that I would like send them away. So just trying to understand balance between like, you know, this is my trauma and what I'm working with this is how they receive it and what it is. A good way to raise them so that protect them but like also keep them free of like what I'm dealing with as a parent because I feel like lot of my trauma is just like passed down from like whatever my mom was dealing with and so even though I have all these fears and anxieties about how to be a proper parent. Sometimes I miss that those are probably the same anxieties that like my mother had and why I am the way that I am so it's definitely a crazy balance. I definitely feel like I can always do better and yeah, I like I want the best for them and I feel like every parent feels that way and it's just getting past whatever emotions and events have happened in the past that can make it make it that way.

01:09:00.700 - 01:14:02.630

Yeah, and so I know we've already talked about kind of a lot of different I guess fears that you have for your children, but specifically like in the world as it is today with all of its problems, like what are your biggest fears for your kids growing up in the world? Yeah. Oh there's so many, so many girls especially, I feel like. I guess we can start by like I talk to my partner all the time about this but you know these big transitions for like I plan on homeschooling them anyway, but like what if I get tired and like they want to have a their own like high school experience. Like how will I like except that? I have a very hard time like seeing myself saying like, okay, that'll work. Or thinking about the privileges that I had as a kid. Like remember my mom just like dropping me off at the mall when I was like in middle school or high school and I'm like could never do that. So a lot my fears are just like I feel like the one that always sneaks up on me is like it's going to be a regular day and everything is going to feel fine. And then you know, my child is going to go missing. I feel like every story that I watch on like, you know, those things CSI episodes or whatever ever it always starts off as like a regular thing. So I feel like maybe my hypersensitivity to issues will like keep me in check but so I guess I'm like bigger ones would be like how they feel on the inside. That's always something that I feel like can't control for instance. You know, what if they like girls and they don't feel comfortable telling me like to deal with that emotional figment of you know, my mom's not going to approve this and like dealing with that internally by yourself. I feel like it's very dangerous and you know or what if they like...What if they're like very Pro like I can wear what I want wear. Like, I feel like I would accept that like very easily because I would know what I want wear or I was just thinking about this the other day because my cousin just told me she was afraid to tell me that she's like an Entertainer so like a stripper like once a week and was like, why are you scared to tell me and she was like because I feel like with like your Catholic values like it wouldn't be considered like something like job and was like, okay. So like how much money did you make one night? She was like was like the one night. I worked made like $500. was like, that's more than I make like a week. So I feel like it's very much like a good job. And so for instance if my girls wanted do something like that, I feel like it wouldn't be super easy to accept but I would learn eventually how to do it or to register. just hope...my biggest fear is that hope that they feel like they don't have tackle it alone or they feel like they can come and talk to me if they need to, if they need help making decision because I know what it's like to try to make a decision based on you know, what your parent approves and how it can hold you back from being something great or being really good at something and so that would be my biggest fear is that they just feel like I wouldn't love them or accept them for what they truly feel on the inside. So aside from all the crazy things that happens. I have a case for everything. I'm like don't think can let them run by themselves. Like would have to go with them running. So what I plan to do is hopefully build up a business to where I can just hang out with my kids all the time and go with them everywhere so that they don't get tired of me, that I'm just their best friend. I'll let you know how that goes in 20 years. Yeah! (Laughter) I'm sure, I'm sure it'll be great. We'll see!

01:14:02.630 - 01:16:22.950

You seem like the kind of mom that kids would want be friends with. Cool. Yeah, I can see it, I can see it. So I guess kind of on the flip side of that as well, what are your biggest hopes for your children and the future? Oh, I think I get chills every time I see a woman in politics. So like AOC, every time I see her or like Kamala I'm like drooling, because I wanted to be like a woman politician, but obviously was shot down a lot, but it would be really awesome to like see them take on a role like that and to support them through it. To be part of their campaign team, oh my goodness that'd be so fun. But that would be like huge hope, you know, just to be to be able for them to be themselves and to you know, uplift other women in the community in the best way and to be a strong intelligent voice. I feel like is a big thing, like every time I hear AOC talk I'm like, I really hope one these girls wants to go to college and like wants to go to law school because if I could have my kid like rebuttal like AOC, I think I would be able to die really happy. So that would be a huge hope is not that they become active in politics but that they become speakers of what they believe in and that they could just feel comfortable in knowing that in the community is where the solution lies and so just like any type of like help for the community, I think would be really awesome. I'd be really proud them either way.

01:16:22.950 - 01:20:31.530

Yeah. In continuing with the hope strain of questioning, what are your biggest hopes for either the black lives movement or any type of you know activism that you're part of like, what your hopes for those moving forward? Yeah, so even just in our little and it's not little group but the activism group that's here in Jacksonville, the Jacksonville Community Action Committee. You can start to see like the numbers dwindle and even myself, I've like attended a few less meetings because it doesn't feel like it's a hot topic right now with all the voting and you know, all of the presidential things and also like trying to run businesses. So my hope is that people stay ignited and that they continue to keep showing up even when there aren't as many people dying. Like if someone is still suffering then we're all still suffering right? So my hope is that we keep it fueled, even though slowly we are getting these small victories and I feel like the biggest hope that anybody on the team would say would be for...there's this law in the Jacksonville police. It's like this extra layer of protection this bill of rights that police get and essentially they're protected when they kill somebody even if they didn't feel threatened like that's the only loophole is all they have to say is they felt threatened, even though they were on top of situation each time. And that would be the biggest hope is that they would abolish that law so that we can properly go through the process. Even now, I feel like the process for the Jacksonville police is they don't have like a Citizens Board Review, like when an investigation happens for instance, like there was this shooting, police shooting of a seventeen-year-old at traffic stop. And what they're supposed to do is release the video, they enforced hat and body cams in like early 2019.So what they were supposed to do is release the video so that know, the investigators could see it and also the family could see it and the lawyers could have something however, what happens is they view it privately they edit it. They like skew it to certain way to tell certain story and then they share the video. Like I think they showed the video like nine months later and they're supposed to show it within 30 days. And so just all these protections that protect police. I really hope that at least one of them gets knocked down because that'd be a huge success and I feel like it's one step closer into gaining our rights back as civilians.So I feel like that would be a big one. Well, I think that those are all of my questions. Is there question I didn't ask that you wish I would have asked? No, I don't I feel like we talked about a lot. I feel like even just like talking about it out loud to someone who is not my partner like helps me process a lot of the ways that I think. So thank you for asking me questions.

01:20:31.530 - 01:20:56.400

Of course! Because I feel like it always is helpful to understand those little things that make you the way that you are. So yeah, do have any closing remarks or comments before I stop recording? Not really. I wish I had something like thought out but like go vote.

01:20:56.400 - 01:21:13.600

That's a good one. What like maybe two people will hear this, but those two people, I need you to vote! And need to do research on your votes because they really do affect people. That's a great place to end. Yay.