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Okay, this is an oral history with Art Grau conducted by Connor Mitchell Thursday, October 22nd 2020. The current time is 12:02 p.m. Do I have your permission to record and archive this conversation? Yes you do. Wonderful. So essentially what I'm trying to do with the collection of these interviews is to make a more I guess complete history of the Vietnam War because I know I can speak from my experience like in public school a lot of people when learning about the Vietnam War. All it is just about the Public's perception of it. And essentially the government's like, oh the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was passed and then everyone hated the Vietnam War for some reason and Woodstock was a thing and then Kent State happened and it it's less about the actual war and more so about the actual perception of it and I just want to I guess discuss a discover the more individual experiences of the Vietnam War from that specific like military standpoint. In general to give everyone a better understanding about the real cost of the Vietnam War and just a bigger picture of the Vietnam War. So just straight off the bat, before the war started. What was everyday life like? I

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had graduated from high school in 1963 and wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but I worked in an art department that designed embroidered emblems and I was happy I was single I was free. I was living at home. No expenses, life was grand, and in 1965. Well, actually 1964 I bought a brand-new Mustang. I was living the life. I had it made, and life was simple. It really was and I thought this is the way it's going to last, you know, nothing's going to change. I'm going to work the rest of my life, finally retire, and raise a family, and just go on, and that's the way it was going to be. Everything was going to be fine. You play by the rules and you know, you will succeed it was that simple. So the folks around you, were they apprehensive about Vietnam, or was that not even on the radar? It wasn't really on the radar, we had heard about it. We don't didn't have CNN. We didn't have 24-hour news. The only thing was you might see something in the newspaper about some involvement in Vietnam. Now President Kennedy at the time had sent some advisors to the Vietnam, but that was it. There was no large confrontation with anybody and it was strictly on an advisory capacity. Up

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until maybe 63-64 and I think it was in 63 or 64 when we first sent a large contingency to Da Nang because we had an air base established at that point and we needed some protection. So we sent a large contingency of Marines to Da Nang and that's when it got started. Of course then the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Then all hell broke loose. But we still didn't get that much contact with the news. There wasn't that much going, on it was that simple. And even when I went in 65, we knew very little as to what was going on. I mean, we actually were doing some training, but I was up at Fort Devens and it was cold and we had weeks of jungle training. Yet Yet we were told, Well, it just pretend you're up in the mountains of Vietnam and where it's cold. Well that made no sense. But that's where we were, we really didn't know much of what was going on at the time. Did you volunteer for Vietnam or were you drafted? Well,

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I got a notice in early 65 that eventually I was going to get drafted. Well at least go in for a physical and for testing. Now I went to a recruiter and he suggested before that happens, if you get drafted it's two years but you won't have any choices, you know, you go where they tell you. Now two years didn't seem like a long time then but I decided well this is going to be an adventure and might as well make it as pleasant as possible. So I went to Fort Holabird at the time in Dundalk, Maryland and went in for my physical and for all this testing and that's what happened. In August, I signed up for four years to join the Army Security Agency because of the testing that came back and I signed up. I was ready to go in August 17th 1965. So there I was ready to go in get my uniform on. So what was the reaction from your friends and family that you are all ready to go? I think there were all very very supportive. And again, the Vietnam War had yet to really become a news item and at the time when I signed up, because I've signed up for four years to be in intelligence, They gave me an option. I could pick any assignment I wanted. So after a year of schooling I was going to go to Germany for three years. Well,

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I went through my schooling at Fort Devens, Massachusetts got assigned to Germany, went to the 319th Battalion Army Security Agency, and with station a nice little town called Rothwesten, Germany. This is going to be my three-year tour, get out of the army in 69 and go back and live my life. Well, there were a lot of circumstances going on at the time and right after the 67 war in the Mideast the unit we were attached to the 8th infantry was considered at the time a strike unit which meant that any upheaval anywhere around the world. We were ready to go. So things changed. we were washing trucks in freezing weather, spot painting the tops of them, all kinds of strict military stuff. Weekends were gone. Ability to travel, gone. We've been to Spain, France, I mean we were all over the place just having a ball. There was no war going on in Europe. And there were guys actually coming back from Vietnam. In 66 67 they took a look at what was going on and they said this is Mickey Mouse stuff, you know? Let's go back and at least we feel like we're doing something. So it kind of got to me and after I saw all my buddies leaving and I decided hey what the heck this little war is winding down. It's not going to last real long. Maybe I should get involved and you know at least I'll feel like I'm doing something. So

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I volunteered now I finally got approved in November 67 and I was going to ship out the end of December. So I got home and in the middle of the holidays in 67 and was scheduled to leave. I have 45 free days of leave and ready to leave the first of February. So February of 68, didn't hear much news, there's a lot of fighting going on but I thought you know go over there and least and enjoy the atmosphere for a while, so to speak. Well, I go from California we land in Vietnam and they came on the airplane and mentioned that there were some things going on. So when we land, it might be a little bit rough. Well that was putting it mildly. At the time Bien Hoa Air Base was under attack and most of the runways were already being fought over. This commercial airline, okay, takes a dive down. I mean our stomachs were in where our luggage was, and when we land we get hustled off and into APCs, armored personnel carriers, and taken to all these bunkered areas to get processed in. Oh, I mean all hell was breaking loose we did not, we weren't warned that something this serious was going on. As soon as I get there and get processed out, I'm assigned to the 1st Air Cav. Now, I don't know if you know anything about that unit, but it's a pretty distinguished unit. It has been around for quite a long and I'm thinking okay. I'm going to go with the 1st air. I've heard about them. I've seen their Insignia. I know what they're all about. Fine. I'm going to be working in some metal hut somewhere in the middle of nowhere but I'll be fine. So, I get to Camp Evans, which was just north of Hue, which at that time, during the Tet Offensive Hue got really mauled. All kinds of hell was breaking loose and I was in intelligence and you know, this was not the place to be. Anyway, so I get assigned to a team. And they take us up on a helicopter and I'm thinking to myself. Well, then I guess they just want us to know what it's all about. But as soon as we come back down, I'm going to go back and find where out where I'm going and going to be working in some hut behind a desk. Make

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a long story short. I'm assigned to a team that flies intelligence missions, reconnaissance in enemy territory. Okay, first of all, I'm afraid of heights. So being on a helicopter is the last place I want to be and at that point to when you start to realize the situation you're in it's kind of devastating. Of course at that time, I'm afraid. Okay. I'm not going to go back home again. The very worst though is, you don't want to get shot down and captured. That's the worst because you don't know how you're going to react and even if you survive, what are you going to do? And at that point it wasn't about God, country, Mom's Apple Pie, It was about the team. around you. And your only purpose is to get you and them through this war. That's what it was all about. So I spent 13 months flying missions for the First Air Cav gathering intelligence. We would find out possibly where the enemy was and we would fly in that area try to pick up as much information as possible. What type of a unit it was, where they were heading, the size of the unit, anything we could find. And then we would go back, be debriefed, after each mission and that was our job. After a while you just get used to it. I mean it took me a while to get used to flying, but after about a week or so, I mean when there was a lull when we're out on a mission. I mean I sit right at the door because they never close the doors. There's no doors. There's no seat belts. So there's nothing really to hang on to. All of the equipment that we had was heavy equipment. It was all tube type at that time, there's nothing state-of-the-art, but it was all jammed into the rear of a UH-1 helicopter. So that was like a ruptured duck trying to fly. Okay, so we had very little maneuverability, but it was enough that if we flew low enough by the time they get a bead on us we were pretty well gone and out of the picture. So that's what I did for 13 months and I got through unscathed. The

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hardest thing really when I left. Now, I'm on the airplane. Now. I have incredible feelings of relief. I'm going home something I had dreamed about for 13 months, but never really allowed yourself to focus on it. But I'm now on an airplane. I'm leaving and all my buddies are out there on the tarmac and they're waving Goodbye. Had a tough time with that. I really did. But I came home in 69 and in this country, it was not pleasant being in uniform. I got out of uniform as quickly as I could the only people that ever knew I was in the military were my closest friends and my family, and God forbid should anybody find out I was in Vietnam because I'd be a baby killer. so, you know, but I tried to get back into civilian life as much as possible. The one thing I learned when I was in the military was everybody I worked with had at least some college. I had none. I had a high school education. That was it. So I knew one purpose was to get an education. So I focused on that when I got home and I was determined I was going to get my education. The only thing was the campuses at that time, were very difficult. There was a small group of veterans that kind of hung together, kind of so protective. But other than that, I worked full time. I went to school full-time. So there was nothing much that I got involved with and the last thing I wanted to get involved in was some anti-war movement. As anti-war as I was, that was my own personal feeling and I didn't want to get and bring up old wounds it was that simple. I mean when I lost some friends over there. That was the hardest thing, and to feel like they died for nothing. I couldn't face. I really couldn't I mean I came back in one piece. But to lose people over there and know that they were never going to get an opportunity to live their lives, like I was able to. That was tough. So trying to get back into civilian life. It was not very easy. So you just hide basically and just do your thing. Try to get on with life. And that was all I could do at that time. Wow,

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well darn, that's a way to enter Vietnam, and that's a way to leave Vietnam. That's for sure. If memory serves me correctly, you were in Vietnam during Tet? Yes. Yes. So were you there before the offensive actually began? No, I'd landed a couple weeks after the Tet Offensive started. So it was in full bloom and the funny thing was I had heard that Tet was actually the Vietnamese New Year. My first thought when I'm seeing and hearing explosions going on as we're trying to land. I'm thinking hey, they're celebrating! It's the Vietnamese New Year! Let's get out and celebrate with them! Well, that wasn't exactly what was going on and it didn't take long to figure that out. Believe me. So yeah. Yeah, I got there a couple weeks after it actually was initiated but it lasted several months. Yeah,

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so before the offensive began there was at least like talks of the ceasefire. Did the whole idea of a ceasefire make it seem that Vietnam was like a cakewalk? Oh absolutely and back in 65, and maybe 66-67. The feeling really was where the United States of America was the biggest and baddest military on this planet. And here's this little country with a little Uprising. Well, we'll be in there a couple months. Well, it was dragging on longer than it should have, but we were going to win, there was no doubt in anybody's mind, with our power and our technology. We're just going to take care of this just sweep it away. Didn't quite work out that way, but we thought you know, well, they'll find a peaceful way to end this. Well, okay, we'll just wait it out. So when the whole Tet ceasefire was broken, how did you feel? You know when it actually broke it was a couple days before I left for California. But again, the news didn't really cover it. It was just like oh, well, you know, they're trying to create something that wasn't going to work. And when I went to California and I was in Oakland before flying out, we never heard anything and we had got no news on our flight. We're thinking it's going to be quiet. There's nothing really going on. Well, there's this little thing happening somewhere in that country, but it's not going to affect us. So we actually thought huh? It's no big deal. Nothing's going on. Whatever this Tet Offensive might be it's not going to affect us. Regarding

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your duties in intelligence and in the Air Cav. In the helicopter. What role did you play? I sat on a bench with my back to the pilot and co-pilot and it was either just myself or I had a team member and what we did was we had equipment that, well we had a direction finder, we had a recorder, we had a transceiver, we had a code machine. It was like a KY7 or a KW8 I think it was, and that would encode any communication that we had back at base. So all this equipment is what we're functioning with and then we've got earphones. We're listening to enemy chatter things like that. But, you know, I'm facing the tail with all this equipment in front of me and I'm operating the equipment to try and pick up as much recording and as much intelligence as I possibly could plus visual. We had cameras and things like that. So we were taking pictures all along but that's what we were trying to do, get as much Visual and what they called El-int or Sig-int which is signal intelligence or electrical intelligence and we would take all that back to our base and be debriefed and that's that was the whole job. Hmm, so, So correct me if I'm wrong. You would be part of a helicopter that would like fly over enemy positions and just kind of pick up all the different details you could? yes, absolutely. Okay.

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So once you returned to the base for the debrief, Did you have mechanics to work on the helicopter or was that more like Oh they have their own helicopters, they can't deal with it? Oh, no that we had our own teams that serviced the helicopters and they worked hard. They really did, sometimes patching up little holes here and there, but yeah, they kept those things in perfect working condition and I have to tell you The bravest guys I ever knew, and I think the craziest, were the pilots. These guys, regardless of danger or the situation. They flew their missions and many of them not even associated with intelligence. We're out there running ammo supplies troops in and out of hot zones. And bringing wounded back, dead. They were the bravest of the brave as far as I was concerned and I definitely salute those pilots they were incredible. But they had to have to be a little crazy too. Most of them really were they fit the profile just perfectly. So did you work with one pilot during your time in Vietnam? Yeah, probably more than half the time. I worked with Bryce, who was, he was a little little crazy, drank like a fish but sober any time we were flying a mission and if I had to depend on anybody, Bryce was the one I would depend on and We had some other pilots just as good and I was just as confident that whatever it took, we were going to be okay. So

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during your off time, Rather, during the time at the base where you weren't getting debriefed or ready to go for next one. What did you do to keep yourself entertained? We drank a little bit, but we made sure that we were going to be perfectly fine for the next mission. Sometimes there were scrambles that we weren't expecting but we made sure we were always in shape and ready to go. That was the one thing, we weren't careless, because we knew that people depended on us To do our job and do it perfectly. But we had a four by eight piece of plywood on one of the bunkers with a sheet draped over it so we did get movies. Okay, so we would sit out around the bunker at night watching movies until Charlie decided that he didn't like the movie so he would lob some mortars or some rockets in, just to keep us awake. But the other thing, I mean we would just sit around and gab. We didn't talk very much about the war. We talked a lot about our families. And what we were going to do when we got out. So that's where a lot of conversations were. I did get a week of R&R that was in December. I believe of, 68 and I spent the week in Thailand and went to Bangkok. That week was was beautiful. One of the best, we had some Thai troops. the Queen's cobras and they were stationed right down the road from us. And we had a little tent where we serve beers. It was our Saloon and sometimes some of these Queens Cobra's guys would come in and they'd drink with us and some of them could speak English. So we would have conversations met this one guy who was telling me that he had a twin sister who worked in Bangkok. She was a waitress in one of the restaurants. So to make a long story short, I have a twin sister. So we got the talking about different things and he said, you know, if you ever go on R&R, think about going to Bangkok because my family is there and they'll take good care of you. That's what happened. I

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spent the week in Bangkok, Thailand with a family that was just, they couldn't do enough for me, and I did not want to go back, believe me. There was a part of me that was figuring out, okay, well if I if I don't go back what am I going to do? It was just fleeting moments because I knew I was going back it was that simple. But that was the only time really that we really got off base. Now. There were some times we would have courier runs where we would go into Bien Hoa where our Battalion was and we would take duffel bags with us to load up with booze from the PX or other goodies that we didn't have direct access to and we bring them back. But other than that, there wasn't a whole lot going on between noise and occasional attacks and things like that. Most of the time we just try to relax as much as we possibly could, and at least be together. I mean you're with your friends and nothing draws friends closer together than fear and combat and believe me, that is a bond that does not break. It really doesn't matter who they are. I mean, we were all different. I mean we came from different backgrounds, you know races, colors, creeds, it didn't matter, you were all one. And that was the good thing about something like this. I mean war is Hell believe me, but this was an opportunity to work with the finest people you can imagine and it didn't matter what they looked like and it was great. I learned a lesson I really did. But we all got together whenever we could, we socialized with each other, we learned so much about families and things like that, and we also would set some goals for ourselves once we got out of there. And what were some of these goals? Like I said, the one thing I knew was I had to get an education. There was no doubt in my mind. One lesson that I learned was how precious life is, how precious family and friends really are, and if you've never experienced something like that, you don't know how precious they are. So you value them quite a bit and your life just feels different after that. You've kind of grown up quite a bit from being a 19 year old to a 23 year old who has changed quite a bit. But my first goal was really to get that education and try to live as normal a life as I possibly could, without the baggage. Not particularly easy, especially in those times, but that was my main goal. And I knew that I wanted to find a career that would carry me through. That I feel doing something worthwhile. And luckily I was able to do that. Oh

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darn, well that's good. So in Thailand, just a chance encounter with some member of the Queen's Cobra's led to just endless hospitality? I just think that's wild. What was Thailand like? It was beautiful. Oh my God, the country itself. It's a lot like Vietnam, only without the shooting going on and the explosions. The people are wonderful. They really aren't -- they're kind, they're hospitable, and so accepting, I mean now, okay if there was a foreign military coming into my country for R&R. I'd kind of want to back off. But they were hospitable and the time went by so fast, but everywhere we went I mean if we went to the local market, people would smile and nod their heads, you know. They knew who we were, even in civilian clothes, knew exactly who we were, but it was such a pleasant experience and I learned to appreciate, you know, foreign countries for what they were and how kind those people really are. Wow, it's just that sounds amazing. Thailand's just on my list of places to go and I am really jealous right now. So I guess how did you try to refocus yourself once R&R was ending? That

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was not easy, but you know what? As soon as you get back, you're out on another mission and that's all behind you. Everything you just experienced for that week is off your mind. You're now back flying in a helicopter, doing your job, hoping you don't get shot down, and that's what it was all about. So you kind of put it in a little category in your head so that when you do get out, you'll think more about it and I took enough slides at the time. I got a ton of slides of Vietnam, but also, Thailand and they remind me how wonderful that really was. I I I I understand what you mean by that. So I guess once you got back to your unit and your camp, you mentioned how your missions were essentially just flying and collecting intelligence, were there any other missions that you find yourself doing? That was primarily it. Like I said, sometimes we would have courier run but for the most part, that's what we did. We either were back at base camp relaxing and trying to keep ourselves together and flying missions. That was that was it. It was pretty simple. Yeah,

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and I guess do you have a particularly memorable mission? I guess you have like, what's your most memorable mission? Okay. I remember there was one by the Cambodian border because where we were located was right by the Cambodian border. Northwest of Saigon, there was a little area that kind of jutted into Cambodia. And that area is where the Ho Chi Minh trail led. So a lot of troops, enemy troops, and enemy equipment and supplies and things like that were being filtered in through Cambodia into that little area where we were located. So it was ripe for intelligence. But there was one particular time we went out and we had a hint that there was a large force, several miles away and luckily we found them. And we came back with a load of intelligence. And a couple days later, we got nailed, but we were prepared. We had spent a couple days reinforced in the perimeter with the barbed wire, Claymore mines, and putting loads of troops around that perimeter 24/7. So we were ready for them. And thank God we found what we did because I sometimes think if we hadn't have seen that, if we didn't get the intelligence, we might have been overrun. So that was one mission that I think, I'll never forget. There was one other time too. It had nothing to do with flying missions, but we had some equipment that had been damaged. And we were taking it to our battalion headquarters for repairs. And it was a beautiful day, out on a dirt road and all of a sudden. We're in an ambush. And the thing you do when you are in a convoy is you get the hell out of those vehicles and you find a ditch somewhere or something to hide behind. Unfortunately, they had set up at that time, we didn't know what they were, but they were IEDs. And before we knew it, my best friend had stepped on one of those explosive devices and the vision of him going up in the air with no legs. that

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will always remain with me. I never got over that. And I lost a few other friends over there too, 3 from a rocket attack in their tent another one by a sniper but losing Jimmy was the worst thing that could have ever happened. He was kind of our moral leader. Every morning we would have what they call police call. So you go around pick up cigarette butts stuff like that and he would sing It's a beautiful morning, and he was, Jimmy was so Black that when he smiled, all you saw were his eyes and his teeth. Well you'd call him the Cheshire Cat. We loved him. He was our Soul and Spirit of our unit. To lose him, that destroyed us. It took a long time, and we were never the same after that. Losing somebody like that, uselessly. We never recovered from that. So that was one instance that had nothing to do with our missions, but it changed a lot of us. I'm sorry. that just sounds heavy and I'm sorry. you. So I

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get a sense that there is this real sense of Community among the folks you served with. The shared community kind of got everyone through the war? So, once you got back from the war, did you meet up with anyone you served with? I think what happened was, no, the answer to that is, I really didn't. there are some that I still have contact with but nothing on a regular basis. There have been reunions I couldn't do it. I even tried to go to the Vietnam memorial several times with my wife. And I got close. Just couldn't do it. I know I still carry some wounds from it and mostly from losing people. And

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seeing the damage that we did the civilians over there who just wanted to raise their families on their rice paddies. They didn't know anything about democracy, communism, whatever. They wanted to live their lives. They wanted to survive. Too often, they were not going to survive. And it broke my heart to watch things like that happen. So when I got home. I distanced myself as much as I possibly could. I didn't want to think, see, hear, anything about the war. And as close as I was with those guys over there, to bring it all back again was something that I just couldn't do. I thought about them. I even wrote a lot of stuff. But for 50 some years. I did nothing to connect myself with the Vietnam War. But I did do some writing, but for my own purposes even my wife didn't see what I was writing, but I would write stuff down from the time I got home, to up to two and a half years ago. And I wrote all kinds of notes and facts as to what I'd been through. So there was a, it was almost like a catharsis, of being able to put something down on paper that I was feeling. And some friends of mine. I actually showed them what I was writing. And to make a long story short I got published. I wrote about my experience in the military and especially Vietnam and what that was like, but also what it was like to come home. That helped me. It really did. Plus two and a half years ago, Reluctantly, I went to the first Vietnam veteran celebration day sponsored by Gilcrest, which is a hospice program here on the East Coast, pretty large group. Anyway, they sponsored this. I was reluctant to go because again didn't want to open Old Wounds. But

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I went, there I was. The healing hadn't happened and it's an ongoing process. I don't know if it'll ever disappear completely. But the thing was that I knew that it had to happen, I had to do something, so going back and looking and remembering what it was like on that airplane. I knew what I wanted to do, and I got in contact with Gilcrest. And since that time I have worked with a large group of veterans, because Gilcrest has what they call we honor veterans. So I'm a volunteer been a volunteer now for two and a half years and able to work with other veterans that are either in a hospice program or in some other needy capacity that Gilcrest sponsors. It has helped me. It has really done a lot to allow me to kind of give back to a lot of veterans that have sacrificed so much for this country, but it has helped me more than I think it's helped them. Wow. That's something else, I know when I read your first email, I did read the little snippet about your book. So I guess what was like publishing that book like? Well, let it be known, I am not a high-tech person, okay. I just sold my 1930 Model A Ford that I had for 26 years. Okay. I have a Victrola which is a, I don't know if you know, but it was made in 1896. Okay. I have all kinds of antique furniture and things. I still have a rotary dial phone. Okay, so that's where I am, technologically wise. So,

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when I was encouraged to send a manuscript in. I said, okay, well, where do I mail it? And he said wait a minute mail? We don't use the mail. Here I am, I want to publish, self-publish this book, and I'm getting all this encouragement, but the publisher is saying I have to learn how to put it on a computer, insert pictures, okay, and edit and send this stuff out there in cyberspace to the publisher. That was a challenge. I have since learned quite a bit. There were times when I used all kinds of words I learned in the military to explain how I felt about high-tech. And being able to do this project. When it was all done with, I was I was proud of myself that I was able to do that. And the response I had gotten from veterans and veteran's families about the book. There was one instance where a friend of the family contacted me and said her brother was really messed up and he just never adjusted. He was just kind of a reclusive and was wasting his life doing nothing. And she eventually got him to read my book. And she said almost most like magic, after he read your book. I heard him laughing. She said I didn't understand. But what it had done was it had allowed him to look at his situation and what it was like to be in that war but actually find some humor in it. And it's like it helped them. And all the veterans that I work with have eventually gotten my book. And the feedback that I get from it has just been remarkable. Again, this was something I was not going to share with anybody, not even my family, because the original manuscripts were kind of angry. There was some sort of transformation it went on and I realized wait a minute. Some of these things are kind of funny. Because there was an incident in there when we came back from a mission. And we had a shower, a wooden shower, with jet fuel tanks as containers for the water and somebody had welded little spigots on them. So we used them as a shower. One time, I went in and I looked up and in the one rafter was this humongous black snake. I run back to my tent grab my M16, throw in a clip, run back, and just (imitates gunshots). Okay, snake guts, wood splinters, and pieces of metal, all over the place. I was not well liked because this is a shower, okay, that people used to clean the crud off. And it took a couple of days, I learned how to weld. But it was just such a funny incident and there were a couple of things in the book that I talked about first going into the military and my attitude was I'm Military Intelligence. I'm going to be wearing civilian clothes, I'm gonna have disguises, you know, I'm gonna have a little vials of poison with me, and I thought I was special. I go into basic training thinking maybe they don't know who I am. But yeah, I'll just get through this. Well, they have a way of whittling you down to where you don't think of yourself as one special, but much less an individual. But what I went through during that time was comical thinking, what I went through and what I was thinking at the time and there were some other things that happened when I was Germany even funny things again in Vietnam that helped me to look at the whole situation and think you know what this is something I really need to put on paper and it's just been an experience for me really has. Yeah,

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I can imagine it being almost therapeutic in a way, but on another note, I can't blame you for that snake incident. I'd probably do the same thing. I hate snakes so I get it. And I guess to kind of wrap this all up, the last kind of question, is are there any questions I should have asked you? Anything? You know, I feel like we covered everything that was important at least to me and I hope to you too. This is all like for you. Is there anything you want to say on the record or? Just

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how proud I was to serve the way I did it took me a while, but I realized probably the job that I did helped to save some lives and that, rather than take lives, that got me through a lot because I can't imagine what a lot of other troops went through where they had no choice. But I was fortunate in that I can look back with pride with what I did, with the unit I served, and with troops I served with, and it really helps me to appreciate dealing with veterans now. It's an honor and a privilege just to be able to do that and it means a lot to me because I get more out of it than I'm sure they do. I understand that and the one thing that I've kind of taken from a lot of these interactions of just emailing folks and speaking to them. I just feel so humbled and so grateful not only of like the actions that they've taken but just how kind and they are just to help a little old college student collect stories about their experience like it's just been absolutely wonderful. So I just want to personally thank you for your time and allowing me to the record this, like I said before, you're not just helping me make a project or something. You're you know, helping future military historians. I guess by extension. I'm helping those military historians and I think that that is really special and I just can't I guess think of the words just thank you for your time and your service. And I guess with that I will stop the recording. It's my honor and privilege.