00:00:05.940 - 00:00:16.160

This is Prudy Leib, daughter of Roberta and Arthur Leib, and we lived on East Halbert Road. Were you born in this community, Prudy? No, we moved here when I was two

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weeks old. Two weeks old. And what year was that? 1951. And how long did you live in Bannockburn?

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Well, we moved to Crathie Lane when I was six. I don't know, is Crathie Lane considered Bannockburn? Well, yeah, the community. Until I went to college when I was

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18. So you lived here from two weeks to 18 years. Uh-huh.

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And did you like Bannockburn? Did I like Bannockburn? Well, Bannockburn wasn't a place you, it just was. I mean, you didn't... It was sort of the world, so.

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Since there was nothing else. Since you've been away from it, how does it compare with your other living experiences? Well my first reaction when I left was that it had been too insular,

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and I remember when I first left resenting it for being too perfect and protective and insulated and homogenous and suburban, and it took me many years before I realized what a wonderful place it was.

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I think actually when I had my own child I realized what a perfect place it was to raise children in particular. Uh-huh.

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So you would look for another neighborhood like this to raise your own children? Yes. Uh-huh. Are you looking?

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Well, I don't think there are any. I'm living in a place that's not too dissimilar, but still everything doesn't come as easily, I think, as it comes in Bannockburn.

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Not so many kids around when you just walk outside. Yeah, activities, and there's one nursery school, and it's right up the street, and that sort of thing. Mm-hmm.

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Did you have a lot of friends when you were here? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And what, can you sort of recall

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some of your best or funniest memories? I remember one of my best memories was the Halloween parties we had in the early years when all the mothers would make chili, and it would be up on Bannockburn Drive I think.

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I remember when it was snowing, sledding down the hills and skating on the river, and playing games with the crab apples that grew around East Halbert, which we loved, and the fireworks in the backyards.

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The amazing thing, I think, was that everything was done together. I mean, it wasn't amazing to me at the time, but now it is.

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That all the, there'd be one fireworks display in somebody's backyard. I can't remember whose it was on East Halbert. If you were living in this area, you're living in Evanston,

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Illinois now, right? Yeah. If you were living in this area, would you move back to Bannockburn? Yeah, sure. You have one little boy, who's how old?

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He's 14 months and I'm expecting another one in December. And you would come back here and give them the Bannockburn experience? [laughter]. Yeah, I think I would.

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It just seems now, again, now that I'm home, we have children, it seems like such a wonderful place to raise kids. Just the access to activity.

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Other places, you have to search them out and hope that you get something with some quality. And there's not kids that you have to worry when you move that there's not going to be kids

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around. And I would love to give them this experience. How about the aspect of always

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being able to walk into anybody's house and feeling welcome. Did you have that feeling when you were growing up? Yeah, I didn't think about it, but, I hadn't thought about it, but yeah, down on our block, I guess you walked into anybody's

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house. And it's funny, now where I live, you have to, I have to call up and find out if the kids are home. And it's just not the, people sort of live more...Of course, I don't

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know if Bannockburn's still that way. Maybe Bannockburn's changed too. It seems that everybody's a little more suspicious elsewhere.

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Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Thank you, Prudy Leib This is Laurie Freibaum, daughter of Jerry and Maura Freibaum.

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They live at 6535 Elgin Lane in Bethesda, Maryland. Laurie, how long did you live in Bannockburn? I guess my whole life. Your whole life.

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You were born here? I was born in New York, but I came here I guess when I was about three weeks old. Three weeks old. Okay.

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And when did you move away? I guess I left for a time to go to college and do some traveling. And keep coming back. And now you're living in Kensington, Right.

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Nearby. Yeah. Did you like growing up in Bannockburn? Oh, I loved it.

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What are some of the things you liked about it? I guess there was a kind of feeling that the people in the neighborhood really knew who you were and cared about you.

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I remember at one time our parents, when we all started to grow too big for the house, they considered moving away. And we all said no. So they added

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on instead. How many brothers and sisters do you have? I have three brothers. That's right.

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You're the only girl. I remember how lucky I thought your mother was. [laughter] That's not nice. Yeah.

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Are you still in touch with any of your childhood friends? To a certain extent I keep tabs on some of the people from my childhood and we run into each other. I guess everybody's very busy and have gone in many different

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directions. Mm-hmm. What are some of the best things that happened to you as you were growing up in Bannockburn? Well, let's see.

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Having to do with the neighborhood. The neighborhood itself. Yeah. What are some of your best memories?

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The Bannockburn show. Bannockburn show. Did you come... Well, I remember seeing it as a

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little girl and watching my mother in it and then growing old enough to be in the show and that was exciting. How many times were you in the show? Gosh, I can't remember, two or--two or three I guess.

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And then I came back past year to see my brother in the show. That's right. He was in the show. Yeah.

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Did you like the school? I remember nursery school vividly. Nursery school. And so coming back here is always special, and the playground.

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And of course, to Bannockburn Elementary School. Yeah, I don't know what to say about it, but I'm... Okay, let's [tape cuts]. Are you married now?

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No, still single. Okay. If you got married and had a family, would you come back to Bannockburn to live or would you like to?

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I think I would consider it, yeah. I guess it's a little hard to say, not living here and having been out of the neighborhood for a few years, but it seems to have that same kind of neighborhood feel and

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I've known a lot of families that have moved away that have come back. I think it's a good, it's a good neighborhood to bring up kids.

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Oh, I think it's super for kids. You really get a feeling like you belong somewhere. You feel like the school is yours. I think that's what's important,

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is the whole community makes you feel like you're a part of it. Thank you, Laurie Freibaum. You're welcome. January 10, 1987.

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This is Gloria Schwartz talking with Sandy and Ed Ravner. Hi. When did you move into the community? I figure it was– November 1956.

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Yeah, that's what I figured. So you've been here just over 30 years. Okay.

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How did you know about Bannockburn? Well, first we knew about Bannockburn because my mother worked for Mary Herling when Mary was, when Bannockburn was really just a dream in Mary's eye, right, in the early days.

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And she knew all the people involved. She was, she's, my parents were old labor people. My father worked for the labor department, and they, and they knew...

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How did she work for Mary Herling? In what? She was sort of an, a secretary, administrative assistant. When Mary was doing what?

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Recruiting people, really, looking for people to participate in the co-op. In this co-op? In this co-op, yeah, in the Bannockburn co-op.

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Now, you, someone really ought to talk to my mother about what she did, because I was in college in the, you know, during that period. Where is your mother now? She's in Madison, Wisconsin in a semi-independent residence for the elderly.

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Her mind is very clear. Her ears are not so clear. [laughter]. But she has a device on her

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telephone, so she would be, and she remembers all her Bannockburn friends. In fact, whenever I see her or talk to her, she asks after...She can't always remember the names,

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but she describes them well enough so I figure out who she means. She remembers, well, the Zitvers, and of course the Weisses are old friends of theirs. And they come from that old labor

00:10:50.560 - 00:11:01.560

socialist... Social democratic. Social democratic Bannockburn base, right? Great, well I'll get her phone number from you and we'll

00:11:01.560 - 00:11:10.700

definitely follow it up. Right, right. So then Ed and I, when we got married, we were living in an apartment in Prince George's County.

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And in that development, there was a woman who was a concert pianist. And those were Goodman Apartments. Were they Goodman Apartments? Is that right? Those apartments in Prince

00:11:21.980 - 00:11:30.450

George's County? Where we were-- No, no, I know you [know them]. Well, anyway, they were pretty modern garden apartments with paper-thin walls.

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She was going to play a Prokofiev piano concerto for, with the National Symphony, and it's a pretty noisy concerto, and she was asked to leave the apartment. Permanently.

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Permanently, yes, permanently. So we knew about Bannockburn, of course. In fact, I think by that time we

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actually owned a lot here. We owned a lot on Bannockburn Drive, which the Janney's eventually ended up in. You bought the lot through your mother?

00:12:02.520 - 00:12:09.060

Yeah, through my mother and me. No, no, no, no, no no. No? We bought the lot from Muary Atkins. Oh, that's right.

00:12:09.140 - 00:12:14.440

Yeah. Oh, so an original owner who couldn't build. An original owner who decided not to build. He built elsewhere.

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Yeah. And it was Bob Nathan who mentioned that, because Maury Atkins worked with him, and he said... Yeah, we had all kinds of...

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"Are you interested in buying a lot?" I was coming back from the ADA meeting, that Maury was selling it. And-- And because we knew it was

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Bannockburn, we knew about Bannockburn. We loved the concept of Bannockburn. And we were ultimately gonna, we thought, hey, that's a great idea. We'll hopefully build it.

00:12:41.480 - 00:12:49.920

Anyway, so we told the Ginsbergs about Bannockburn, and so they came out to look. Claude W. C. Gasper. Yeah, they had a kid named Claude

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W. C. Gasper. Anyway, the house that was for sale was the Dubester house. And we came out with them and

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Mary, met Mary, and looked at the house. And obviously those little, Merrimacks didn't have room for a concert grand piano. But she kept finding other fault

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with it, you know. Okay, the living room isn't big enough for her piano, but she didn't like this and she didn't like that.

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We realized as we were driving home, I wasn't with you. We were, we felt very defensive about it.

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You did. I did. You didn't go with us? No.

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Oh. This was the original Merrimack group on East Halbert on the-- On Bannockburn Drive. Yeah, the original one level Merrimacks. And so I dragged Ed out to look at it.

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We had no intentions of buying a house not for several years we were gonna build on the lot that we owned. Across bus on the street. Jr. [unintelligible] helped us.

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And, we ended up buying the house. The original Dubester house? Yeah. Which is this one?

00:14:00.540 - 00:14:10.960

No, this was the... 6207 Bannockburn Drive. Next door to the Pollacks. In the back and the, what's his

00:14:10.960 - 00:14:21.980

name, the guy that won the Nobel Prize? Herb Hauptman. And, what was it, And the people who lived next door, I don't remember, who sold eventually to–

00:14:21.980 - 00:14:28.040

Oh, the Richmans, who sold to the Levines, right? That was the first house. I didn't know these houses were here.

00:14:29.080 - 00:14:36.040

Were these houses here, or did you build this? No, they were here. This was the Galblum house. In fact, the door still has

00:14:36.040 - 00:14:43.860

Galblum on it because I could never figure out how to take that thing apart that's got the name in it. [laughter]. The houses were always known by

00:14:43.860 - 00:14:51.820

their original owners. I know, of course. So, I mean, we've been here 31 years and we've only lived in other people's houses.

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[laughter]. So that was when we came. In fact, We went up to New York on detail.

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You were with the National Labor Relations Board then. With the National Labor Relations Board and the Waterfront Strike.

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I remember picking Lou up. Lou Schwartz this is. Husband of Gloria. Who's interviewing us.

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And this was what year? And we drove back to New York. You were pregnant with...? Joey? My?

00:15:28.980 - 00:15:34.760

Well, let's see. My--I had two children when we moved in here, so it must have been my third one. Must have been Joey.

00:15:34.760 - 00:15:46.610

Joey, yeah. Must have been Joey. Yeah, we were living... In that apartment house in Prince George's County.

00:15:46.610 - 00:15:55.740

No, no, when we were living in the apartment I was working for IU. Oh, was it when we were living? No, it was after we lived in my mother's house. We still lived at 30th Street.

00:15:55.920 - 00:16:05.800

Yeah, we were living at my parents' house because they were in Israel. That's right, That's right. And I came here to pick him up to drive him to New York.

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We were both on detail in New York. And that was the first time you saw the community? Yeah, probably was. First time I did, yeah.

00:16:14.600 - 00:16:29.760

And then we came out here with the Goldmans once. Max was a trial examiner at the Labor Board, and he came to watch a softball game that I was playing in. And we got talking and then he suggested that Sandy and I come

00:16:29.760 - 00:16:46.720

out and have dinner with him and Kay, which we did. Which was another time we saw Bannockburn. So you had, both of your children were born here? No, Mark was a year old.

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Mark was a year old when you moved in. Joey was born here. Wouldn't have...

00:16:53.000 - 00:17:01.060

We, Mark introduced us to the community, actually. I got a call from someone on West Halbert.

00:17:01.060 - 00:17:09.300

I don't even know who it was. Oh, no, no, no. I'm not talking about when you were around [unintelligible], I'm talking about [unintelligible]. No, no, no. Well, that was something else.

00:17:09.800 - 00:17:18.360

We should sign him up in Hebrew school. This kid couldn't even speak English yet. [laughter]. He could barely say mama.

00:17:18.420 - 00:17:27.040

Yeah, he was barely a year old. And I got a call one Sunday morning from someone-- Harriet Fegley. No, they weren't here yet.

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We were long before they were. It was some—no, Ed. I guess they might be on this. Later.

00:17:32.120 - 00:17:39.960

They came later. It was when you were still living on the island. Yeah, but we sold our house to the Fegleys. That's right.

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And that was in '58, '57. Someone called up and said, "Do you have a little boy about a year old?" Yes. I mean, woke me up, you know.

00:17:52.060 - 00:18:07.880

He said, "Well, he just ran past our house and he doesn't have anything on below the waist." [laughter]. He had shed his pajama bottoms and wet diapers. A year old? No, he was about two.

00:18:07.880 - 00:18:17.300

No, he wasn't two. No, he was about 13 or 14--That was right after we moved in. Yeah, I guess about 14 months.

00:18:18.520 - 00:18:24.780

Yeah, he just took off. That's great. Safe community. Yes, right, exactly.

00:18:24.840 - 00:18:34.940

It's really kind of classic. Yeah. How active were you in those early years in the community? Did your kids go to the nursery? Yeah, well, we got involved

00:18:34.940 - 00:18:41.180

politically even before nursery school. I think we were interested in that. Well, you were involved in the babysitting club to start with. Oh, that's right.

00:18:41.180 - 00:18:54.480

The babysitting club. But I have always said that nursery school is the central pulse of the community. And once you graduate from nursery

00:18:54.480 - 00:19:10.340

school, you really lose, you sort of lose contact with control central, the nursery school. We stayed, we were politically active.

00:19:13.260 - 00:19:21.000

There were times--and I wrote a lot of the shows with Irene Schneiderman in those days. You were in a lot of things. About five shows.

00:19:21.180 - 00:19:27.560

Really? Plus that nursery school show that you choreographed. Remember that? We were in together.

00:19:27.560 - 00:19:34.020

It's all confused in my mind. Yeah. This is my once a week day, remember? Oh yeah, yeah, you wrote that.

00:19:35.240 - 00:19:47.380

Yeah. And-- Yeah. Carlton, how are you? Oh, that's for me. How was [Publosh?] While your wife is on the telephone, let me ask

00:19:47.380 - 00:19:57.380

you some questions about your activities. I hear, I understand you were very active in the Glen Echo protest project. Yes, that was 1960.

00:19:57.380 - 00:20:09.900

It was June, started in June 1960. A bunch of kids had been picketing in Northern, Virginia actually. And they came over here...and

00:20:13.120 - 00:20:23.860

picketed Glen Echo. What had they been picketing in Northern Virginia? I don't remember what the...Gotta remember there was no public accommodations law in either

00:20:23.860 - 00:20:37.760

state, or county for that matter, nor was there a federal one. They came over here... You mean for, uh, Blacks? Blacks were excluded from the amusement park, from movie

00:20:37.760 - 00:20:51.420

theaters and restrooms. And they came over here, and they took it to Glen Echo. And a couple of them got arrested

00:20:53.500 - 00:21:02.560

at the Amusement Park. And they had a meeting, I guess our house was closer to the amusement park than anybody else who was sympathetic to them.

00:21:03.340 - 00:21:21.480

And they came over, and we still have sort of screened in porch on the house, because I said, "Look, we used to have meetings there." And Sandy brought them over. She was still writing a weekly column for the Sentinel.

00:21:23.260 - 00:21:35.380

But I was working for the union, and I was perfectly free to do what I wanted. And we met on my porch. It was--the group that was picketing.

00:21:35.380 - 00:21:46.300

They were youngsters. I think they were from Howard University, is my recollection. And..although it was a mixed group

00:21:46.300 - 00:22:02.380

of white and black. And from the community, there was me, Ralph Showalter. I can't think of who was at that

00:22:02.380 - 00:22:19.360

original meeting, as far back as I can remember. I remember Ralph Showalter being there, Stan Talpers. I don't know who else was there. I can't remember who else was

00:22:19.360 - 00:22:31.800

there. And we started to talk, and then all of a sudden people began to say, "I know someone else who would be interested in this." And Glen Echo had been a festering

00:22:31.920 - 00:22:46.020

sore anyway over the years on and off. I think the pool had already been closed. I think it was, I think the pool was not in use, what would have been called a crystal pool.

00:22:46.020 - 00:22:56.920

So it was only the amusement park. Anyway, they started to picket. And of course, a lot of the people who had organizational identities here, you know, long liberal

00:22:56.920 - 00:23:09.840

traditions, the [Caros], and everybody joined in that picket line. And it became a summer activity, as it were, And really intense, enormous commitment by the

00:23:09.840 - 00:23:17.360

community. And then it expanded, it took on a life of its own practically. Oh I remember the Nazis counter

00:23:17.360 - 00:23:26.260

picketed. Rockwell came over and counterpicketed and really made the picket line at that point. Because then you could say to people, "Which side are you on?"

00:23:27.180 - 00:23:34.900

And people would come and join the picket line. And it was a thing to do. It was a way, the sit-inmovement was going in North Carolina.

00:23:35.020 - 00:23:43.840

It was capturing the imagination. Here was something they could do. You know, walk over. The problem that we had frequently was we couldn't get Blacks.

00:23:46.360 - 00:23:56.120

They had lost interest. And I had a white picket line on my hands one morning and I had to tell some youngster who was Black. I said "You can go across the street and get a soda pop", I

00:23:56.120 - 00:24:11.880

don't know what it is, I guess I said, "But you got to come right back," I said "Because if you're not here, I got a white picket line and that's crazy." But the whole community picketed. And congressmen came down and picketed.

00:24:12.700 - 00:24:26.660

It was a major assault on Glen Echo, it really was, in terms of community. And we could see that parking lot. And that parking lot was almost empty by the end of the summer.

00:24:27.120 - 00:24:39.560

We had sufficient support that we really had cut their business enormously. As a matter of fact, they opened up the following year integrated.

00:24:40.520 - 00:24:49.120

And what year was that? 1960. Summer of '60. On Labor Day weekend, they announced they were closing for

00:24:49.120 - 00:24:57.660

the season, and they would open up the following year, integrated, which they did. And they did. Without ever an incident based on the integration.

00:24:58.580 - 00:25:16.020

The only incident they ever had there was the Easter thing, when they let more kids into the park and sold more tickets than, in an effort to protect themselves against people casually coming into the park and not riding on the rides and just crowding the

00:25:16.020 - 00:25:28.580

place. They put in gates and they said you had to pay a dollar twenty-five I think it was to get in, but you got a dollar twenty-five's worth of tickets for

00:25:28.580 - 00:25:40.760

rides, well they got oversubscribed. And the park panicked because they had more kids on the lines than they could possibly accommodate and so on. And they just closed the park and sent everybody home without

00:25:40.760 - 00:25:50.580

telling the bus company either. And as a result, these kids had to walk home to the district. And you know, you've got a bunch

00:25:50.580 - 00:26:02.320

of kids who are unhappy, hot, and unsupervised, also, walking by. And, you know, obviously, that did some damage to shrubbery and that kind of thing. In this neighborhood, or what

00:26:02.320 - 00:26:14.280

was--? No, the Longmass Avenue area. Oh, no, they knocked down a can of peas. Highs had their green peas, cans of green peas arranged in a pyramid.

00:26:15.420 - 00:26:22.900

And I guess two kids must have asked for ice cream cones at the same time. There was an old lady who used to be the one at the Highs who gave out ice cream cones.

00:26:23.760 - 00:26:31.960

Because I remember, if both kids asked for ice cream cones, both my kids asked, at the same time she would get hysterical. So I can imagine if five black

00:26:31.960 - 00:26:42.100

kids appeared at once, she must have gone out of her tree. And they were, moving on, anyway, they knocked over her cans of green peas. Screaming that they were

00:26:42.100 - 00:26:52.540

destroying the place. But it was a successful boycott, and it just— It was very successful. And it was—it had enormous community support, although there

00:26:52.540 - 00:27:09.880

were side effects that fragmented parts of the community. A number of us who belonged to the Bannockburn Pool wanted the pool to allow these kids who were coming out here to picket, the Black kids who were coming out here to picket, and they had no

00:27:09.880 - 00:27:24.340

money obviously, to swim in the pool for nothing. The question as to whether they could get in the Bannockburn Pool was moot because we were buying tickets, you know, guest tickets, and using the guest tickets to take them in.

00:27:25.200 - 00:27:40.740

Then the question came up, shouldn't this be done without charge? Shouldn't this be sort of a contribution by the pool, as it were. And we met in Pearl Schwartz's house.

00:27:43.200 - 00:28:01.600

And the two who were delegated from the picketing group were me and Mary Lou Munce, to meet with three of the officials of the pool board, of whom Mr. Pearl Schwartz, I can't remember his name. Um, Herb.

00:28:03.340 - 00:28:13.380

Herb. And two others, I don't know who the other two were, we met with them to make the pitch. And boy, howdy, we suddenly ran

00:28:13.380 - 00:28:30.080

into a kind of hostility that I, for one, did not anticipate. That, you know, we let our children swim in the pool. But so they get that routine from them, because we know they're only neighbors in the pool.

00:28:32.240 - 00:28:43.100

And you, you got this terrible hostility. And I look around, and Mary Lou Muncher was always on her white horse with, you know, a saber in

00:28:43.100 - 00:28:50.400

hand, was quivering in the corner. I mean, all of a sudden, I was by myself then. Really?

00:28:51.300 - 00:28:58.140

Yeah, and I did not persuade them. Needless to say, we continued to use guest tickets. I mean, it did produce the burden,

00:28:58.140 - 00:29:05.740

the financial burden on the rest of us. But you didn't get any of the black picketers into the pool? Yeah, we did. Sure we got them in.

00:29:05.740 - 00:29:11.040

But they got them in as guests. I mean, there's no restriction on guests. The only issue was whether we were

00:29:11.040 - 00:29:18.840

going to be put to the financial burden of buying guest tickets or not. That was the only issue. And we kept telling them that.

00:29:18.840 - 00:29:31.480

These kids are going to swim. You know, the question is, are the rest of us going to have to buy the tickets for them? That was the only issue. There were a number of interest--And there was another

00:29:31.480 - 00:29:39.560

arrest down there. There was a spin-off group that went to the Heiser theater and picketed there, which wasn't so bright.

00:29:40.680 - 00:29:48.360

Suddenly made two centers of it. These kids then decided they were gonna escalate it. They were losing control. Which kids?

00:29:48.360 - 00:29:59.280

Of the picketing. The original leaders of the picket group were losing control because they were now a small group. The community outnumbered them five to one on the picket line at

00:29:59.280 - 00:30:15.280

any given time. And in fact, we were winning. The parking lot was empty in Glen Echo. And they decided they had to do something dramatic, which was to

00:30:15.280 - 00:30:23.600

get arrested. That's how they were going to show they were more militant than the rest of us. And I remember saying to one of them, because I was so angry, they

00:30:23.600 - 00:30:35.940

used to get arrested about [dim and dark] all the time. I had to go over to the police station and get them out. And I went over to the police station in Bethesda, and two of them were there who had gotten themselves arrested.

00:30:35.940 - 00:30:47.250

One of whom I knew was a Commie, I can't remember his name, worked for a Chinese restaurant downtown. And the other one I didn't trust because he was simply an overbearing kind of a fella.

00:30:48.700 - 00:30:58.440

And they were gonna go to jail. They didn't want bail set. See, we used to get either bail set, put up $5, or released on their own recogni--