00:00:01.100 - 00:00:23.890

Okay, I got a button on my side that said "Recording". Okay, perfect. So we are good to go. Um, Okay. So this is an interview between myself, Fontana Micucci and Christina Motilall, if I'm saying that correctly -- Motilall. Yep. Motilall, okay. And this is on October 29, 2021, and this is over TheirStory, and it is 6:06p.m.. Uh, do I have your permission to record this interview?

00:00:29.100 - 00:03:52.100

Yes, you do. Okay, perfect. Thank you. So first question, could you tell me a little bit about where you grew up? Sure. Um, I grew up in a town called Inver Grove Heights in Minnesota. It is about half an hour South of the Twin Cities. Um, at the time that I was growing up, it wasn't as, um, suburbanized. Uh, we had about six and a half acres of land and we had a little hobby farm, so we raised chickens and ducks. Um, and um, I went to public school, uh, through my, um, through my entire K through 12 education. Um-- I did s-- I should say, I did spend the-- the-- first five years of my life in a town called Bloomington, Minnesota. I-- I started and I-- I-- went through kindergarten there, excuse me, and that was just on the outskirts of Minneapolis, but I don't really remember much of there, so my formative years are--are in-- are in Inver Grove Heights so I consider that to be where I grew up. Um the, uh the area of the town I grew up in Inver Grove Heights was sort of divided in two, the area that I lived in was more, um, I-- I-- (sighs) I describe it as a farm town for people who haven't grown up in, in small towns before. But, um, you know, a lot of people had acres; there quite a few cattle farms around, lot of land like a horse ranch across the street, so it was definitely a lot more spread out. Um, but only, I'd say five minute drive from my house, there was a pretty suburban area that is still a part of my town. Um, kids from that area went to one high school. I went to a high school that looped in the farm part of my town as it was joined with another town where they-- the families had historically all gone to school together. So when they drew the school district, they sort of mapped out around our part of town so they could pull us in so the generations of families could keep going to school together. Um, the area I went to high school in was called Rosemount, Minnesota and, um, we were [a] predominantly Irish Catholic town and, um, we were in a district of four high schools and, uh, the other three high schools were in, uh, higher tax brackets, so their schools were at a bui-- they were built much later and, um, serviced a different type of, of, of student, whereas my high school was the oldest school in the area, used to be the only high school in the area, and then also had, um, students coming in from other districts around as well. So I did that, um, for the majority of my education and then my junior and senior year, I, uh, went to school, in, um, a town called Apple Valley at a magnet high school called the School of Environmental Studies. And, um, that was a selective school that was attached to the Minnesota Zoo and, um, I received a very stellar education there, um, and I was very happy. So that's a little bit about where I grew up and how I grew up. And you mentioned the town being a bit more Irish Catholic and demographically speaking, how did that kind of align with the Irish Catholic part of the town?

00:03:54.700 - 00:05:47.100

Um, the-- the-- the Rosemont High School I went to which was, uh, my main high school that there was a couple of private, um, Irish Catholic and Irish Catholic schools that sort of fed in. So there was an elementary school in a middle school where a lot of students went and then they didn't have their own high school, so they either went to a private high school that was outside of town or they got funneled into our high school and we all kind of met. So it was a-- a very interesting melding of worlds that all came together 'cause our high school, sort of being on the outskirts now from the Suburban areas, was then sort of the catch-all from everyone else who wasn't fitting into the other suburban part. (pause) Um, and how did that kind of shape your education growing up being in that outskirts, as you said, um kind of being the catch-all. Yeah, it was--it was very interesting because, um, our school was not-- like the average income bracket was lower middle class, um, uh, and (pause) lower--lower middle class and, and some catch for--for middle-class as well. Um, but, you know, it was very interesting because there were a lot of economically disadvantaged families and kids at my school, um, but they were all predominantly white, whereas my family was one of the only families of color in the area but we were upper-middle-class. And so, um, it was--it was an interesting dynamic for sure 'cause that's not really the way you think of it, or people think of it, or the way the rest of the country operates, a lot of time, so. It was--it was sort of a fish out of the water situation (laughs). And we're there, any distinct memories you had tied to that kind of experience being in a different, like, flip[ped] situation.

00:05:49.300 - 00:09:52.510

(pause) Um, (sighs) you know, there's--there's not a lot that stand out in terms of like, that dynamic of, you know, my family being more well-off than some of the white families. I think really what happened was that, once money started to come into play a little bit more, as we got older: who has a car, who can pay for fast food, you know, that kind of stuff. Like, I became more popular (laughs) as time went on because I think I just had more resources available to me. And, like, people who weren't ever like, I wasn't not friends with, but I definitely became closer with different people based on like, what (pause) I think they needed sometimes. Um, uh, but you know, I also, you know, I also found myself being, um, I think one of--one of the things that it really started to do and one of the memories I really have is it started to shape the conversation about who was going to go to college, and who wasn't; and that convers--, you know, for me it was a given, but for so many others, it wasn't, and around the age of 15 or 16 that started to become very apparent: who was thinking about community college, vocational schools, four year college, trade schools, or going into a career. All of which are all equally valid, but money played a huge role into how people saw that playing out for themselves. And you said you went to a magnet high school that was more dedicated to the science and attached to the zoo. And did that kind of go into your decision on going to university or going to college? Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I--yeah, my high school experience was a little odd because I actually went to both high schools at the same time. Um, so the, uh, the arts were not available at the magnet high school and I was in choir. So everyday in the middle of the day, I drove back to my regular high school, went to choir, and then came back for the other academic stuff at the--at the magnet high school. So, (pause) the magnet high school was a place for students who didn't fit in, um, in their normal high schools. They're what we call them their "home high schools", but it wasn't just for our district; kids from all over the state came who were having troubles in their school for whatever reason it might be and it really became, you know, a--a safe space to sort of explore who you were, but it was also extremely academically, like, rigorous and I think the real part of it was if you want to go to college, but you know it's going to be really hard to make it there in your current high school situation, "Let us [the magnet school] help you get there." So it was extremely, like, geared towards teaching you very high writing skills, you know, intense like, science comprehension, a lot of math. There was a lot of critical-thinking, uh, but there was also a lot of, you know, skill concepts of like, you know, we had a pho--like a photo development lab, there was woodworking, there was animal care. So there was a way for people to find different paths that, you know, the home high schools don't necessarily always allow students who had different tracks to be able to find a way to college through. So, it was very geared towards "You're going to college" kind of, you know, they--they never made you, you know, but it was sort of a given that's like: "Look, we're going to help you get there. Let's just find the right fit for you." Um, and they helped with scholarships, they had great re--like, they had great, um, reputation with a diff--some different high--excuse me, colleges around the country that had a similar vibe so like Oberlin College and then there's another one in Upper Wisconsin called Northland College. They were sort of--they had like, a great vibe together that this sort of like, this is a place where students, who feel at home here, could possibly find the same home in a college that might not have been able to find that otherwise. And for yourself, did you utilize a lot of those, kind of opportunities and different outlets in order to find your way to a university that you liked?

00:09:54.100 - 00:13:08.700

Yeah, I think what--I think what going to that school taught me because it was ver--you had to apply to get in. And it was--it was only 200 juniors and 200 seniors, and our class sizes were itty-bitty because of that. And so, what it really showed me is that I thrived in smaller class sizes, um, because before that, like as I was kind of saying, my high school was sort of a catch-all school, and even though we were, I think compared to some other schools, we are considered small, um, but my home High School, Rosemount, but like, for me, being in a class of 40 people was like, drowning. Um, so, being able to see what being in a class of 15 was like, for me, really sort of moved me away from going to a state school, which my brothers did, a lot of my friends, one of the University of Minnesota or Wisconsin, they're amazing schools, but it--I realized it wasn't for me. So going there taught me how much I needed more individualized and smaller, um, like attention in class sizes. Yeah and, not to backtrack at all, but you mentioned that you had brothers; could you tell me a little bit more about your siblings or just maybe your family dynamic in general? Sure. Um, well, I'll start macro and sort of move micro. So, macro, my, um, my great-grandparents were brought as indentured servants from India to Guyana, South America and my grandparents, and my parents were born under British rule in Guyana. And then in, uh, 1981, my parents immigrated from Guyana to Minnesota. And then, uh, they had my uh, they had my two brothers and myself in Minnesota. And then, uh, somewhere along the lines we sort of became really good friends with someone who sort of became like my adopted older brother, but not legally, so I always say I have three older brothers, even though only two or biological, but I have three older brothers. Um, we have a great family dynamic. Uh, they all live in Minnesota within like, an hour of each other; not even, within a half an hour of each other. So, I am the baby and the only girl and I moved away (laughs). So I do miss them, I mean, it's really hard but, uh, it just wasn't--Minnesota, just wasn't the--the place for me. I--I needed to-- I needed to sort of spread my wings and--and move, and that's what I did. Uh, my father owns a, um, contract manufacturing business, so they make like, shampoos, conditioners. And, um, when I was in high school, my mom left her previous job as an accountant to come run the books for our family business full-time, because the business had really taken off, which was really exciting for everyone. Um, my oldest brother, the, uh, my adopted brother, he, um, works for my dad and, uh, my second oldest brother is in IT [Information Technology], and my third oldest brother is in medical device consulting. Perfect, thank you. And do you think growing up with brothers, helped to shape you in any kind of aspect of your life? Whether that was academic, personality, anything like that?

00:13:09.200 - 00:17:26.350

Oh, yeah, for sure (laughs). Huge. Um, I think, you know--I think growing up, um, you know, with a mother who grew up working on farms as well, in a third-world country, and, you know, then moving here and also having outdoor labor that we did and then working in the factory when we were younger 'cause it's cheaper than a babysitter and that's what you do, um, and then you know, having brothers and stuff too--there just wasn't a lot of femininity in my life growing up, um, and I was huge tomboy, you know, because it was really the only way that I had connections with people. There wasn't a lot of--there weren't a lot of women in my life, um, and the women that I did I have in my life were amazing, my aunts and my grandma, you know, and some of my cousins but they weren't a part of my, like, day-to-day upbringing, they were more: see them at temple or, you know, see them, you know, at a wedding and stuff every now and then. But like, you know, my day-to-day life was very masculine, um, in terms of like the laboring and the, you know, falling in love with Ninja Turtles and Transformers and whatever--whatever my brothers were watching. I was watching because I didn't want to be the only one watching something so I ended up falling into whatever they were doing. Thank you. Um, And then kind of the--another question: you bring up your mom working and just being in the factory, working on farms, both in America, and then outside; um, did you find her to be a very influential person in your life as well because of that or was there other--another aspect, uh, to your mom that kind of left an impression on you? Oh, uh, every--yeah, every aspect of her has always been a huge impression on me. You know, I was always just in awe, how she managed to be--how she managed to work and raise us, you know, and be an incredible wife to my dad and then always be there for anybody who ever needed them and keep our house together. You know, it was--I think about it now, when I look back on it and everything that she did and I just, I mean, I'm floored honestly, uh, and you know, our culture like many others have a--has a very sort of strict rigorous like: "women run the household, men bring the bread," but my dad was starting a business and running it, so she also had to bring the bread (laughs) and--and run the house while he was bringing bread, too, you know? (laughs) So it's just a lot, um, but I always, um, I think when I was younger, I took for granted how much she was doing, you know, and I think people do that often with the women in their lives and the labor that they--they hold. Um, and I was no exception. Even as a young woman myself, I was very (pause) I think I was very unappreciative growing up of you know, of everything that she did. And I think one of the biggest things she sort of instilled in me and--and was like that women are just as deserving of education as men are, you know, and there wasn't any other--there, you know, my brothers did not perform in--as well in school as I did and there was never any, "Oh, don't show up your brothers" or like, "Wait your turn" kind of stuff. It was just like, "Well Tina's the smart one, send her; go, you go do something," you know. Like, um, (pause) not that my brothers were dumb, but high school is not the best place for everyone to shine, so as I kind of came up, I was in AP classes and I--you know, I was doing a lot of stuff and involved with a lot of things that my brothers did not do and, you know, classes that they weren't able to take and so, there--Yeah, there wasn't ever any like, you know, "Sit down, be quiet," you know, kind of things in that realm. There was a, a lot of encouragement to get an education. And you know, my mom was always very much like you will be the best that you can be because she was the--you know, she was the best; I mean unattainable standard for sure. Definitely. It sounds like it (laughs). Um, and going back in time, that into school; [what] was that decision process: going to apply to university, getting in, was there a lot of determination towards that goal? Was there, just like, the end goal was to get into college and like, how was--how is that like?

00:17:29.000 - 00:21:11.700

It was, um, excuse me; It was very stressful, in the terms of, "what school I was going to go to?" It was never stressful about whether or not it was going to go. And I (pause) I--I had swallowed the truth, you know, the reality, so early on, in my academic career that every class I took was going to end up on a transcript that a college was going to look at, you know, and that was very heavy for a 14 year-old to sort of walk around with in their backpack, you know, and so even when I was burnt out to the max in every AP class, I was like, "if I miss one, that's someone else who's going to get a spot at the school I want to go to," and so that was, sort of where my brain went. And that's why I had applied to the School of Environmental Studies because I was like, "No one is going to have something like that," because it was the only school like it in the country; honestly, one of the only schools like it in the world. And so, it was just very interesting--I mean it was--it was just an odd, like, time to like--it was an odd time in my life to apply because I was 15 going on 16 and I was deciding that this is what was going to help me get into the college that would help me get into the grad school, that would help me get the job that I wanted. It was just all very heavy but, that pressure was there, but it was never--it was never a pressure that was like ripping my hair out, like, "why do I have to do this?" It was pressure of like, "I can't make the wrong decision." So it was--to me they were very different of just you know, there wasn't--there wasn't an "if" it was "How? how am I going to make it work? What is it going to look like?" kind of stuff. And how did it feel when you got the decision and decided, "this is the university that I'd like to go to"? (sighs) Oh, It was a huge relief. I had (sighs), I almost did my own version of like, a draft and I was like, putting things up on boards with Post-its, moving things around, eliminating things, you know, getting brochures, you know, went on a few campus visits and then, you know, there was what I wanted, and then there was what my parents wanted. And (pause), you know, the--the hard part about it is that at that point in my family's history, no woman had gone away to college unaccompanied. So every time a woman had gone to school, there was a family member who lived in that city or she--you know, there was always something, there was someone there to watch her, and some of the schools that I were look--that I was looking at, you know, being from Minnesota, they were on the coasts and I really wanted to pursue them and it was just immediately shot down because my parents were like, "you are too young, you are not ready." And one thing I know they'd never admit was like, they were not ready. You know, they--they just weren't. And we--you know, we ended up coming to a compromise for the school that I did end up going to, um, but it was just, I mean, it was--it was one of those things where, like, once--once that compromise had been made and once the decision was made, it was like (exhales). You know, it just--it was just like a huge weight off and then it's very funny 'cause I joke around that I enjoyed High School the most, the last three months of it, (laughs), when I decided where I was going to go. (laughs) Definitely, um, and just for full clarification, could you just tell me what university you decided to go to just so we have it on record?

00:21:12.300 - 00:21:27.100

Yeah, for sure. Um, I went to Drake University in Des Moines, Iowa. Okay, perfect, thank you. Mhm. Um, and what was it about Drake University that really caught your eye and caught your attention?

00:21:31.700 - 00:26:57.800

I had--when I started doing the draft, I started narrowing it down to small, private colleges and then it got narrowed from there to priv--like, small private colleges in the Midwest because then, that was the--that's when my parents started to come in and we really started to talk about it. And then like, "how far was I allowed to travel? How often did I have to come home?" So there was--it--it shrunk so quickly around this bubble; and then from there it was basically like, "I need literature on every single school under 5,000 people in this far away." And then I drew like, a little map and then I just started going nuts. And, I got brochures from everywhere, I got lots of pamphlets, went to phone--like had phone calls, did all these things. And, I toured a few schools, and I remember getting Drake's materials and being like, wow, I really like this name which, you know, at sixteen--at seventeen, excuse me, was just like the most seventeen-year-old decision I could make; I was like, "oh my God, I love it!" (laughs) And I remember reading through, and one thing that stuck out to me is that it was the only non-denominational private school that was in the running and was at the same academic level that I was hoping to achieve. And some of the other ones, they weren't like overtly religious, but at the time I was in a place of really finding myself in my own faith, which is Hinduism, and I was like, I don't want to get white-washed and wrapped into that at college. So I was like, I need to find--so, once I found out that Drake was non-denominational and I read the materials, and I saw their majors, and all of this stuff, and it was only a three and a half hour drive from home, which was within the four--the six-hour bubble I was allowed, I think it just--I think it just really clicked. All the other schools I applied to I saw before I went, but Drake was the only one I applied to without seeing because it just felt right. So I--yeah, I applied, and I saw it after I got in, thank goodness I loved it, but like, I--I just, I just kind of knew. Cool, definitely very cool, and just an interesting story to say the least. Um, and when you, like, got to Drake and you saw it, other than being non-denominational, was there anything immediately--or not immediate--was there anything else about the campus, uh, that really just struck you as a place that you wanted to be? Yeah, so after you're accepted, you--you go to sort of like, an experience-day kind of thing and your parents can come with you, and it's before the final deadline, so you can pull out, its before the final deadline of other schools, so like it's more of a, "hey, you've been accepted. Let us--let us pull you in," you know, kind of thing. So, my parents had said, "look, let's make sure this is really where you want to go before we like, send in the tuition deposit," like, that makes sense. When I got there, I knew I was in--like, interested in student government. So I went to go to, like, the student senate roundtable thing that they have and I immediately noticed that the student body president was gay and I was like, "yes! Yeah!" (laughs) Like, it just not, you know, I'm--I'm pansexual and so--but at the time I was still struggling with who I was and where I was 'cause I was in high school and was not even anywhere near being out at the time. Um, but I saw that and I was like, "this is good. This is--this is good," like because, whatever is happening with me that I can't figure out right now because, I don't know, there was Will and Grace, and that's all I had at that moment; I was like, I'm just still trying to, you know, this is 2004, 2005, was a whole different time. I'm like, really trying to figure it out, um, that to me was--was huge. And then there were, I just saw like other students, who were--my--I felt like my high school was so homogeneous. And then I'm walking around, even this small campus and I'm seeing a lot of different people of different races and I'm seeing--and to sound so weird, I was seeing a lot of people of like different sizes and hair colors and like, they were all talking to each other 'cause usually where I was from like you just sort of stuck with what you looked like, you know, and at the environmental high school, it was much more open-minded and I refused to lose that. So, when I was walking around Drake and I saw, I mean, it was still predominantly white, but there was still--it felt more open, you know, it was just like, well, that's more of a product of Iowa than, you know, anything else, you know, so it felt--it sort of felt like I was stepping somewhere that I knew that I could make a mark on and like, carve my niche out and as opposed to getting swallowed and lost at some of the other places I--I had seen. And kind of speaking to that idea of seeing so many people of so many different backgrounds, racially, ethnically culturally, um, did it take you long to adjust because you had been so used to homogeneous environment as you said? Or was it more like, you seem very excited [now], but I just wanted to kind of further that.

00:26:57.800 - 00:30:42.400

Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting 'cause at the time, my 17 year old brain thought I was like, "wow, look at all these different types of people!" and then when I actually went there and now looking back, I'm like, it was hella white. It was very white. But, there were--there were--there were a lot of opportunities for students to sort of, show themselves. I know that sounds like a weird way to say it, but there were, you know, associations, you know, there were like, you know, there--we had like different groups and collectives where students, you know, we had like a Rainbow Union, we had a South Asian Student Association, we the Black Students' Coalition. You know, there was a lot of stuff going on where, you know, it, it--we didn't have that stuff where I grew up, you know, you were just sort of "the one" or kind of [unintelligable]. So even if there were only 20 or 30, that's still 19 more than I was used to, you know, and so, um, it was--it was one of those things [that] felt like it was really nice that even if it was small, that there was some door that someone could walk through and--and not only just that but the university, like, what's the word I'm looking for--they not only [unintelligable]--they like supported it; student activity fees went to these organizations to hold events and to--to bring themselves out on the forefront of campus and everything, speakers were brought in about that. And I just--I always felt like it was one of those, like--they got the spirit they're trying, you know (laughs), it's always, I mean it's an--it's an uphill battle and again, this was, you know, 2005 to 2009 when I was there. I mean even now, things are so different than they were then and even then, looking back, so much could have been better, but it could have also been so much worse for a small school in Iowa. So I, you know--that a lot of the administrators were, um, people of color, predominantly black, there was just a lot of openness in the terms of like, this university wants to reflect all of its students back at--to itself, not just the white ones, which some other colleges and other schools, I knew did not care as much to even try to do that. Right, and for your campus involvement, what were some of the organizations and clubs that you gravitated towards in your first year? Oh, man, I did so much. Um (laughs), I, uh, the first thing I wanted to do was join Student Senate. I was always into Student Government, I really enjoyed being a representative for people, I've always enjoyed being a "public servant". Maybe, well, which is weird thinking back on it now, but, um--so Student Senate was the first thing I just went head-on for. And, um, just that year that I was there, they were creating a Diversity Interest Senator position, and I applied for it and they don't let first-years be Senators, so I became their intern, with basically the idea that like, "we're grooming you, this will be you next year." So, I did that, um, and then I joined choir immediately when I got there as well, um, I joined an ultimate frisbee team that was a part of a league. Um, that didn't last very long though, it was more for fun (laughs). And, um, I joined my Residence Hall Association, as their Green Chair and, um, then I joined Kappa Kappa Gamma which took up a lot of time (laughs). And thinking about it now, would you have changed any of your involvement on campus, compared to when you had--had first looked into these types of organizations?

00:30:45.700 - 00:34:01.600

I think (pause), I think what I--I would have done differently is, I would have tried to get more involved with some of the, like, the green initiatives on campus. Like, I helped through my Residence Hall Association, but, we had an environmental group that I was like--I was a member of, like, I went to meeting sometimes, but like I didn't--I didn't make a splash in that group because I was pulled in so many other directions and I was so focused on Student Senate. I wish I would have split my time a little bit more and been more involved because there was so much work to be done on campus in the name of sustainability. And I saw it and I just, like, just couldn't, I--I didn't have energy to go there because I had already thrown myself into so many other things, so I think that's the big thing I would have changed, was been more involved in the--the environmental side, which was being very well-handled by other students, but I felt a level of guilt that, "that's what I'm going to school for and that's what I dedicated my life to"; like, "maybe I should be doing a little bit more of it," but, I was also trying to effect social change in other parts of the campus and those two just--I kind of got to a point where I was like, "there will always be white people who care about the environment. So, go do that," like, some of this other stuff, I'm one of the only people that can do some of these things, so I've got to go do that. And if you're comfortable with telling me, what were some of those, kind of, initiatives that you were taking on that you were pioneering in and kind of like, the one man, or the one woman team. Um, well, there was honestly to tell you the truth, the thing I liked about it was that there weren't a lot of things that were just individualized, but there were certain things that like, you know, two or three of us would really drive home, you know. So there were, I think, in my entire collegiate career, there was only one thing that I think that I single-handedly was like, "ha!", Uh, but a lot of it, I'm a team person; I'm not an individual--like individualized workers. So like, there was a lot of stuff that I proposed that a team helped move forward. So like, you know, we were really trying hard to get composting on campus. And, like, that was something that I had helped try to propose but then, like, other people sort of picked up and moved. So, like, at the time I you know, that's more on the green side, but there was also a few things about like, trying to update our recruitment--like our, um--like, the pamphlet of the information that goes out to students with things about the organizations that are here to support, like, diverse students. And, you know, trying to direct more money through our budgeting towards those programs and things like that, that were just like, for me [unintelligable], like, chipping away things. You can't just bring it up and leave, so it takes a lot of effort to stay and keep chipping at the same thing over, and over, and over again. Um, and so like that's just a lot of energy. And so for me, it's sort of felt like a lot of people would get frustrated. But like, it just sort of made me feel stubborn and empowered. So I'm like, it's me again. (Laughs) That's sort of how I ran most of my, like, involvement. And that stuff (laughs). (laughs) And did any of those issues or initiatives carry over into your major, or academic career as well?

00:34:03.000 - 00:37:15.400

Yeah, you know, the work that I did to support our, you know, our Rainbow Union, and our LGBTQ+ community, [unintelligble] through--through grad school. And, um, I'm trying to support some initiatives right now at the EPA [Environmental Protection Agency] where I work. And so, you know, it's--that's been a, a strong sort of thread through what I've done in terms of just trying to make events happen, trying to create safe spaces, welcoming spaces, um, you know, and just an overall, just, you know, trying to be someone that people know that, if I can't help them, I will help them find the person that can, you know, do that kind of stuff. So that--that was one part of it. And then, um, I think I really got a great flair for communicating through all of that. You know, some of these ideas are really hard to articulate without people feeling attacked, you know, especially at the time, there wasn't--there wasn't a very easy way to sort of say, like, "white privilege exists, but that doesn't mean you're a bad person." And at the time, especially before a lot of these conversations were getting into the brains of people, that's what it sounded like. So I learned a strong, (pause) a strong sense of self through the--the way I was able to communicate those issues and say, like, "look, I am not personally victimized by you, but I am victimized by white supremacy. And, like, everyone is a part of that system and has a role to play. Let's talk about it." Because the more we shove it under the--you know, shove it under the rug, the worse the problem gets. And so like that has also moved through into the work that I do. Um, and kind of speaking to those foundations of that thread, were there any particularly transformative or cultivating experiences during that first year that helped to assist you in just continuing that work? Um, honestly, the first year was more about finding myself in a lot of ways: trying to kind of find where I fit, what I wanted my--what my tone and my image to be for the next few years. And, you know, I had never had freedom like that before. My family was very, (pause) I mean, they didn't lock me in a tower or anything but like, I definitely did not have the same freedoms as my white friends. And so, when I got to college and all of a sudden, I had the ability to do what I want and go where I want for the first time, I spent a lot of time just doing that. (laughs) Like, I, uh--freshman year, was not the year I really buckled down and my GPA will show you that, like, it was--that was time for Christina to have fun. And, uh, I did. Oh, I did. Um, (laughs) but the--the bigger--the better stuff came later (laughs). And do you look back on that first year of like having fun, as a, kind of, a good memory, a bad memory, or just kind of a memory in general?

00:37:16.800 - 00:41:17.700

I would say that it was majority good. You know, I think everyone has regrets from that point in their life, you know, no one ever did it right. You know, but I don't think I did it wrong. I think I just--I think I did it the best I could with the tools I had at the time, and looking back on it like, yeah, do I want to go and slap a few drinks out of 18 year-old Christina's hands? Absolutely. Who doesn't want to do that to them--like do their past selves, um, but am I--am I sad I made those friends? Am I sad I went out? Am I sad that I, you know, allowed myself to finally have freedom? Like, absolutely not, like, I am so proud--I'm so proud of how I did based on (laughs) how poorly it really--how poorly it really could have gone. And with, kind of that social aspect of the first year, was that how you were introduced to Greek life? Or was there another avenue that you kind of went through to be introduced to that organization? Yeah, so, I--I'll start out by saying that I--when I was looking through materials, and when I toured Drake, and everything, Greek Life was--it literally wasn't on my radar. Like I was looking at jobs to have on campus before I even looked at Greek Life because everything I had known and heard and seen about sororities, I was like, "yeah, this is clearly not a good fit for me." Um, but when I got to campus I--you know, and started meeting people, it was a--it was a very odd, you know, just sort of like circumstantial event, but a guy I had went to Rosemont with, my regular high school, he and I had known--had known mutual friends. He was at Drake; he was a year older than me. And my first weekend at school, we ran into each other and he was like, "hey, I'm in this fraternity, like we're having a party tonight. You should come!" And he was a, like, a super stand-up, dude, like he didn't drink at the time and he was--he was just like a really, really nice guy. So if it had been almost anyone else, I've been like, "no thank you to your frat party," but because it was him, I was like, "okay, I super trust you, always known you to be the--like the best, dude." So, I--I went, and when I was there, there were a few women from another sorority that were--that were there, and they really liked me and were joking with me and they thought I was really great. And this was not very long before recruitment, and they were like, "you have to go through recruitment. You have to join our house." and I was like, "oh, okay, sure. You seem great, like, I'll do that." I was like, "what is it all entail?" [and they said] like, "oh my God, we're all best friends, and it's really great and you're going to love it." And I was like, "okay, I guess I'll go through recruitment." It was like 35 bucks or something. I was like "great!" And, so that's that's why I went if I hadn't ran into Jason that day and I hadn't met those women, I (sighs) there's an off-chance I would have went because a lot of women on my dorm floor was just like "It's a great way to meet people! Just go through and do it, you know, it's just a fun night." You know, I might have but I never would have went through with any intention of actually joining. I would have been like, "well that was an experience. They all scream at you when you come through a door and clap and sing and this is a cult; time to go!" Um, but, since I had met those women and I'd humanized them, I was like, "oh, okay." So like, you know, and they told me like, "don't be intimidated when it happens, they make us do that." And so I was like, "You're so cool. They're juniors! Oh gosh!" Um, which sounds very high school, but I mean at the time it kind of felt like it was. And then yeah, that's--that's sort of how I decided to go through recruitment. It wasn't a, it wasn't a calling; it was me trying to impress some cooler older girls. So that was that (laughs). And what was your recruitment experience like [unintelligible]? So, just like, the physical part of it. What was that process like?

00:41:20.200 - 00:43:14.200

Um, it was really unnerving because, you know, as I noted, I--I never grew up super feminine and I had, like, decently long hair and that was, like, the most feminine thing about me. Um, and so all these girls were getting dressed up and they had these beautiful dresses, and they knew how to do their makeup, and they knew how to do their hair, and they were in high heels, and they were talking about eyeshadow, and I just rolled up and like--I had like, three nice outfits, which, thank God recruitment is literally only like three nights (laughs). And, um--and so, I wore the one the first night (laughs). And like, "this is it." And, you know, everyone was so dolled up and I just felt really out of place 'cause they, you know--and I, I only knew--I mean, through the entire recruitment process, about a hundred and twenty women go through, and I think there were maybe five of us who were not white? And so it was just very overwhelming to also feel like I'm not feminine enough, and then everyone was super, (laughs) super white, and I just--I remember being very nervous, and also being a little sad 'cause I was like, "why am I going through all this work when no one's going to pick me?" Like look it--'cause I would just look around and at the time, and I'd be like "look at her! what the--I can't compete with that!" (laughs) Like, there's just--there was just a lot, you know, and there was some shame wrapped up in it. I was just like, "why am I making a fool of myself," but, you know, I told myself that I wasn't going to back down because of that--because of that fear. I was like, "I'm gonna go and I'm gonna hold my head high until I fall down in these heels that I borrowed, and (laughs) then we will see how it goes." Yeah, and did you find that the chapter--the chapters [unintelligible, possibly: "reflected"] that recruitment pool of like, majority white and-- Oh, yeah. --Maybe a few people of color in there? Okay.

00:43:14.500 - 00:48:22.870

Oh, yeah, I mean every house that I went through, it looked almost exactly the same. (pause) And then, did--when you were going through recruitment, was there any moment where you knew there was a certain house you wanted to join or certain house you didn't want to join? So that kind of experience of process and elimination during that time. Yeah, for sure. Um, well, when recruitment first started, they told us a whole bunch of rules and they were like, "you're not allowed to speak to the older women. You're not allowed to drink, you're not allowed--" you know. There's like you have to-- like, there was a whole bunch of stuff you were--you weren't allowed to do, but there were also rules that the women that were in the house were supposed to follow, and one of them was, is, "you are not supposed to speak with Potential New Members, and if you are, it could spoil their chance of getting in because, you know, you dirty rushed them, which is, you know, the term and that, you know, it could ruin their chances." And I remember getting really upset because I was like, "wait, those three girls who were talking to me, they could have gotten me kicked out through this process, and like, a black spot on me because they would have 'biased' me." Like maybe they would have gotten reprimanded, but I remember being really angry. I'm like, "that's not fair, like I didn't know those rules. I had just gotten here!" And, I remember when I went through their house, I just had a really bad taste in my mouth because I was just like, "are you all like this?" And then you sit down and you meet some of these women and, I thought I was a lock for sure in there. So I was like, I'm just going to be honest and, you know, not do the whole like, "oh my God, I'm so happy to be here!" kind of thing is like, I'm going to figure out what's going on, 'cause if you're going to break the rules, I'm gonna break the rules too, because you're not allowed to talk about boys, booze, or bars. And I was like, "well, I was around all three of them with, you know [alcohol], so, what is going on in your house?" and women were, like, really unnerved by it. Looking back now, I realize those three women didn't speak for the whole house, but at the time since it looked homogeneous, I was like, "you must all be clones." And, um, so that really put me off from that house. And then when I went through the other two houses, I remember [thinking] like, "these girls are super nice," and then when I went through Kappa, I just--I don't know, I felt something really different, and it wasn't like one of those like fairytale different; It just sort of felt like, well, this house is kind of cool because it's like kind of old and, it wasn't as like, done up as some of the others. It was just like it would had like a lot of historical stuff to it, and the women just sort of--there was a little bit more diversity in there. But really the big thing was, is that an Indian girl came down, and I was like, "oh my God! Whoa! What?" (laughs) And I was like, "okay, that's really--that's cool." And (laughs), um, I remember being like, "I got to talk to her, someone--let me--" You don't get to choose who you talk to, right? I didn't know that at the time, but--but I was just like, "can I--? What? Keijo [clarification needed] can I--?" Like, I broke all the rules, I was just like, yelling all over was like, "where is she?" (laughs) And for some reason, goodness knows why, they--(laughs), they let me come back. Um, but I just had like really fun conversations with them, and some of the other houses, it was kind of stuffy, and our house was pretty stuffy too, to be honest, but it was a different kind of stuffy. It was sort of like--they weren't trying to be stuffy, they just were, which in a way felt a little more genuine to me because it was just sort of like, "oh, you are just a Barbie? Like, okay; I kind of I kind of get this," whereas some other houses, you know, I could sort of get this feeling that there was a little bit more of an act. So I was like, "okay, I appreciate the realness that's going on here, like, I--I can level with that." Um, and then I--yeah. And then, through the end of the first night when we all came back and everyone was talking to each other, you know, everyone had like, great impressions of different houses. And, you know, there was just this kind of--this weird rivalry between the--between Kappa and the house that had dirty rushed me. And I was just feeling like, all kinds of things, and then I just decided like, if I was going to make this decision, it was going to--you know, something I was gonna have to live with for the rest of my life, much like the weight I had been carrying through all of high school, and every class, and every decision, you know, I was like, "I'm going to make--I'm going to make it based on what the organization is, not just what these women are." So the second night, I started paying a lot of attention to like, the symbols, and the colors and like, why the house was founded; where it was founded?; What were the principles?; like all of that stuff, because the rest of it is just flash, you know, but like what are you going to bond with when you graduated? And so, yeah, that--all of that skewed me towards Kappa; I ended up falling in love with--with that part of the house and--and everything. And so, that is how that worked out. And (pause), could you tell me a little bit about your bid day experience? What was that like (laughs)?

00:48:24.200 - 00:52:08.050

Yeah bid day is--was really interesting because um, everyone was sort of flailing on what to do because the year before, there was like a big thing that they did, and one of--like the last year when they--the year, before that when they had done it, a girl had gotten injured, so they cut it all off. So this year, they had to redefine what bid day looked like; so the first year you do anything is sloppy. So everyone was sort of just like, running around like, you know, tiny chickens in high heels, like not figuring out what to do. So bid day was a bit chaotic. Um (pause), I ended up dropping the house that dirty rushed me, and those girls were so mad. And so, bid day was really rough, too, because I got a [audio glitch: "lot of"] terrible looks, like people were just like being really, really--not mean, but like, shady and just like [annoyed noise] about stuff. And, um, that was odd, to say the least, but you know when I--there's always a nervousness even if you know, there was something in the pit of my stomach that was nervous that I--I wasn't going to pull out the Kappa bid card; and then when I did it was like a sigh of relief, so like all the other stuff kind of melted away and then you come--you come outside and they have a balloon for you and a sign and it was just like, a whole thing and I just--I remember feeling like a sense of relief like, okay, the torture is over like--and, you know, we go back to the--everyone's in, like, matching out--not matching outfits, but like the New Members are in black pants and, like a colored top, and we're all matching and taking pictures and being like, "I don't know you, but you're my sister now, this is so exciting!" And like, I had never been in a room full of women like that, ever. And I had never been in a room full of women that was like, excited to all see each other like that, you know. Like everything you heard about sororities--excuse me, everything I had heard about them: catty, sorority stuff, and all of that--that didn't exist. Like everybody was here, and hugging, and some girls were crying, and people were just like, over the moon about stuff and I was like, "this is amazing!" Like I had wanted sisters my whole life and after 35 dollars, three days, and way too much hairspray, like, I ended up with like, 80 of them. Like, how cool was that? Like it was just--bid day was one of the most euphoric experiences I've ever had. And you know, I know on bid day you come together with the rest of the New Member class and there's a lot of excitement about that; were there a lot of, or, were there any other New Members in your class that were also women of color? There was--there was one: she was born in the U.S., uh, like me. Her name was Sora Moon. And I feel terrible--her and I were not very close; not for any other reason, we just weren't very close, and I do not remember where her family was from, and now I feel really bad about that. Uh, but it was her and I. Okay. And, going back to that idea of having all these women in the same room and just that euphoric experience of being in, like--with all these women; do you think that that want to have sisters and that want to be around--just having that experience kind of affected why you'd gone through recruitment, or was it more of that dirty rushing experience and just thinking, "oh, this is something that I could try."

00:52:09.100 - 00:57:21.700

I think it was more the latter. I don't think anybody could have ever--I don't think anybody could have ever described to me how I was going to feel on that day, and when they talk about it, and for good reason, 'cause they wanted you to keep an open mind, like, it was very clinical when they described recruitment to you. So, like, I didn't know that's what bid day was going to be like--I didn't know that, but like I also didn't know how fastly bonded I would feel. When people were throwing out the word "sisters," you know, as someone who's Indian, we call everybody "auntie", we call everybody "uncle", we call--you know, someone's older than us, they're "brother" this, "sister" that. And so like, that wasn't a word I was unfamiliar with using, so I'm like, "oh, yeah, it's like that. It's like a familiar term," and so, you know, the--the concept that I was going to like--I had--I hadn't seen any women interact with each other, aside from those three at the party, and so like--and you know, because recruitment so scripted, you don't see everybody (pause) hugging, joking around, and eating McDonald's at two o'clock in the morning and, you know, joking about how stupid that boy's haircut is, you know, like all that and--that no one the--if you--if you didn't grow up with anyone who was in Greek life, or you didn't get a lot of exposure to it, really all you have is the movies. And like, I didn't know anybody who had ever been in Greek Life, so I--I don't know, I guess I never really--I never knew that that's what it was going to feel like, you know, that--that rush of emotions on bid day, you know. it--it was, it was, it was overwhelmingly wonderful. And what kinds of relationships did you start to form when you had first joined the sorority? Um, you know, my (pause), my stint in--in Kappa, the four years, it--it all kind of played out the same from beginning to end, which was, there were the cool girls, and there were the not cool girls. I was not, um, (pause) I was not Kappa material to a lot of the girls who were there. You know, it became very clear especially after my first recruitment, that there were probably a lot of women in a room who had voted against me. Um, and, I made friends, you know, I--I it's not like I was ever with zero friends through it. But, you know, very quickly in the beginning there were girls who sort of, were chosen as favorites and floated to the top and they knew a lot of stuff about things. I--you know, that I had never known about and dressed a certain way and, you know, then there was me and jeans and a t-shirt basically all the time or some, you know, weird hippie outfit I was wearing at the time that I had, you know, dug out of a dumpster out of a--out of a thrift store or something, you know, and I was like, "whoa, this is not going to fly here." So I--you know, I--I bought way too much sorority gear right away in the beginning, not because I was super proud to be a Kappa, 'cause I wasn't having a great time, but because I was like, "this is what we wear, right? Like you--you'll like me. If I wear that, right?" Like it was just there was a lot of panic and fear because they let me in and then they immediately ostracized me. And (pause) I mean, I'm also just, like, a little weird, so I get that, but like, you know, there was just a lot of--there was just a lot of stuff I didn't--I didn't fit in with. And, very quickly, girls started dating guys from fraternities and, you know, started creating cliques, and going places, and doing things. And I was making friends outside of the sorority, which a lot of the other women weren't doing, you know, because I was involved in Student Senate and, I was getting involved with some of the things on campus. And so like, they weren't my only friend group and because I wasn't spending all my time with them and because I wasn't one of the favorites, I got, you know, kind of pushed aside pretty often. So, when we had New Member events, when we had chapter, when we came together, like no one was ever, like, shoving me out the door or like pulling chairs out from me, you know, like it wasn't a movie but it also wasn't like nice. Like, I didn't--no one was ever s--like there was me and like three other girls that people weren't like, super excited to see. And one girl was, like, kind of overweight, and you know, like another girl, like, she had gotten in on scholarship. Like there was--there was some really sh--like there was just some really mean girl cliquey nonsense happening and, I kept telling myself, you know, like, "stick it out. It'll get better; they just don't know you, like, everybody's just out of high school we're kids, like, it'll be fine." Um, but I never really did get better. And do you think there were any particular and, like, very particular reasons why there were those favorite girls? Was it socio-economic? Was it based on like, race and ethnicity? Was--what were, what--looking back on it now? Do you have any ideas on that?

00:57:23.300 - 01:03:01.520

Um, I think--I think race definitely played a larger role in it than people were giving it credit for at the time, you know. Um, but I also do think that it was just--it was just one of those sort of, like, fall in line kind of things, and I'm not a fall in line kind of person, you know, and there was a lot of um, (pause) I think there was a lot also wrapped up in there about like, how you were sort of like, presenting yourself to society in a way, and like, I was still on the ultimate team, and I ran our intramural team and [unitelligible]. So, you know, they weren't the house for that. They were that--they were the house who didn't really--didn't really do that. You know, like, we had an intramural team who lost all the time because we were just like, "yay!" There were a couple girls who were sporty, and we kind of held up the end on that, but like, you know--there was--you know, it was like, Saturday shopping things while I was doing something for Senate or whatever, you know. There's just like a--my priorities were not the same as what I think they wanted them to be, and so the girls who fit that mold, I think had come out of a background that made them better like fit to do that. So like, they floated--they were the favorites that floated to the top and I--I think even if I had tried my hardest, I never would have learned how to like "The OC." I just don't think it's something I could have done. I probably could have tried really hard, but I just--I don't think it's for me. (laughs) And how did that affect you, [audio glitches: "outside of the house"] uh, just in general with your different relationships? If there's anything with academics or just, uh, how did that affect, how you felt feeling that, you know, not everyone was particularly happy, but not also outwardly rude. Uh, I think, in a way it sort of made me feel like I had something to prove, you know, like (pause) kind of like the disapproving parent, like, you really want to make them proud, you know. So like, I got really involved and got elected to Student Senate, was doing all this stuff around campus, I was getting appointed to the Board of Trustees boards and just like, really crushing it on campus but like, it was never what they wanted, you know, and really the way it affected me outside of Greek life is that when I met people, they were like, "you're a Kappa?" I'm like, "I am! we're all surprised by this, even me!" Um, but like, my professors like, the first day I came in woreing [wearing] my letters--one of my professors who ended up becoming a--a pretty good friend of mine, ended up telling me after I had graduated because we had run into each other through a conference, and he was just like--and I joked around and I was like, "what did you think about me in college?" And he was like, "I got to tell you my first impression wasn't great 'cause you came in wearing those letters and I was like, 'oh man, we lost another one!'" (laughs) And so, like, people were always--people outside of Greek life, were always like, very surprised to find out that not only was I--not--maybe not surprised to find out that I was Greek, but a lot of them were surprised to find out I was a Kappa. And then, um, you know, through, you know, and then through like--through that, there was just like a little bit of--there was some shame that was wrapped up in it too, because, I think that's what the girls were afraid of, right? That I was so different, that people are going to be like, "that's what I Kappa is?" And I never had the heart to tell them. I'm like, "they think you're stuck up and terrible, so like I'm (laughs)--I'm probably doing more to help this image than you think so." Um, but I was terrified of them so I never said that but like, you know, there was--there was a lot--there was a lot going on there because (pause) people would assume something about me from finding out that I was Greek and a Kappa, and then I had to dispel that myth by showing them the real me, which, was sort of in combat with what Kappa was, or what they wanted it to be. So, it did--it definitely did affect my life outside of it, you know, meeting someone new and telling them I was Greek and have them being like, "Oh, that's interesting." I'm like, "I'm Greek, but I'm not that kind of Greek. Like don't worry, I won't--I won't ask you to my formal, or make you hold my purse or whatever nonsense feminine thing you think is like, going to rip your balls off, like don't worry, you're fine." But like, you know, there's--sorry, I said balls, again--but, like, you know, there--there was just so much stigma around what Greek Life was, and then I was not that. And so, how--like, how did I compete between like--move between those two worlds, you know, and like, representing the best of myself and both arenas, but also like--even though it wasn't a great experience for me, I still wasn't gonna let anybody disparage the house 'cause it was something I had--I did feel strongly about so, I had, you know, I did spend a lot of time sort of defending Kappa, people who were outside of it, and that was a big influence, you know. Because it was hard to defend something that was treating me poorly, but, you know, I'm glad I did it. I knew it was the right thing to do in my own head. And talking more about, you know, trying to tackle that stigma around Kappa, Greek--and Greek life in general; you'd mentioned earlier, taking initiatives about recruitment materials. How did that come about for you or for the community?

01:03:02.100 - 01:04:02.550

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said recruitment materials that way; I was trying to get the university's, like pamphlets--like, you know--I don't know, another (pause) informational brochures and stuff that--I was very excited when I learned about all the stuff that was going on at Drake; if a student was on the fence, and they had read, like, a Drake flyer that had all these, you know, things listed on it. Not just like, "hey go to our website and find it," but like was really proud and printing it and sending it to people. Like, I was recommending that that could be a way to recruit diverse students to Drake, not through Kappa itself. Oh, thank you for that clarification (laughs). Yes, my bad. (laughs) Okay, um, so, and--and, so I guess, kind of a different question then, would be: were there ways you got involved in the sorority organization? So like, executive [board] or committees, or anything that you participated in to try to also (pause) get into the chapter more?

01:04:03.200 - 01:09:46.170

Yeah, so, um, every year I ran for a position; um, I never got the one that I ran for. Yeah, [unintelligible] they never gave me anything. Uh, freshman year, I was Intramural Chair, because they were like, "[O]'Kay, Sporty Spice, go over there". And then, um, sophomore year I was Music Chair, which was also a made-up position, um, but they wanted someone to help teach the songs, and I was in choir, so they were like, "you, go over there and do it." Um (sighs), freshman into sophomore [year], sophomore into junior year--junior into senior year, I applied for an executive position, and they gave it to a freshman (sighs). So, that was (pause), I--I honestly almost quit after that. It was--they had--there were a lot of slaps in the face that like--the time--like the whole time I was there, but that one--and the girl, well, excuse me, the woman they gave it to, you know, was a good friend of mine; her and I had really bonded, and she was amazing, and she did a great job. Nothing to--to do with her, but she was, like, the star child of that freshman year class, and the position I had applied for which was Philanthropy Chair, I had been on that board and helping to run it for the two years prior. And so, like, I was the candidate to do it, and then they didn't give me the position but then placed me on that committee to basically help her run it, like I had been doing. And it was--it was honestly really awful like, that (pause), that really--that really, really hurt. And we all moved into the house, you know, we moved into the house junior and senior year, and I barely was ever there 'cause I just couldn't stand it, but that all happened while I was living there. And I was just so ashamed, and so hurt that, like, one of my friends who was a Resident Assistant, she had her own apartment, and like, I basically just ended up moving in with her and like, just--I stopped coming back to the house after a while, 'cause I was like, "you don't want me? Then, I don't want you, but I'm not dropping out; I'm not giving you the satisfaction." Yeah, and (pause), did you ever feel, um--so by your senior year, you said you didn't want to "give them the satisfaction." Was there any other way that you were, kind of trying to push back? Or, um, just kind of assert that your-- assert your boundaries and your grounds with the organization? Yeah, I (pause) you know I started, (sighs) you know, we had like our--we had like, these formal dinners. They had like, a name that I can't tell you. And like, there's like, all this stuff and, um, you know, you're supposed to dress a certain way for them, and there's like, etiquette you're supposed to have, and like I did all of that stuff by the book for years. And then by [the] time senior year rolled around, I like hacked off all of my hair, they said you had to wear dar--like dark blue, so like I wore like a--like a dark blue, like overall onesie. You know, you had to put your napkin in your lap. So I like, put it on one [leg], and I just like, stopped caring and I didn't--like, if they had brought me up at any code of conduct. I've would've been like, "Point to the rules and show me where I actually did it wrong." Like, you're just annoyed with me, like, you've been annoyed with me. But like, you know what, you guys like--not you, my class, but I was like you're annoyed with the choice that you guys made; that's how I felt with the upperclassmen. I was like, "So, this is on you." Um, but then what was weird is that senior year, I had also ran to be student body president and I lost which was, ugh, so stupid. The guy who got it, I would have been so much better than him, he didn't even care! Ugh, so so angry about it. Um, just white men. And, uh--and he was like, the epitome of it too like, he didn't, he just didn't care; he was just doing it 'cause he could. Like, it just drove me--I had so many things--it was good things. And after losing the Kappa position, and then losing [student body president] you know, there was just like a lot going on there that I was just feeling--Like, I gotta get into grad school, I gotta get out of this school, I gotta get out of this town. Sounds like a country song, but wasn't, I just gotta get--I had get out of there. And, the more I started pulling away, the more people started gravitating towards me, and they were like, "What are you doing?" Because then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, I got cool senior year? Which seems weird to say because it was college and [I was] more of an adult by then, but I had been gaining some, like, traction on campus and had been chosen to be like, a student ambassador, so I was doing [Drake University] recruitment and I had like--I'd started like, interning at the Iowa State Capitol and then I landed a job on like, the Obama campaign, And I was like, one of the lead interns for Obama's political campaign. My boss became Obama's political director for his Iowa Campaign, which in 2008 was huge with the caucuses, I mean, it was a whole thing. (pause) And so, all of a sudden, I was getting excused more and more for things out of Kappa, to go do all of this other stuff, and people wanted to know what I was doing and what I was up to, and like, I started getting invited to things and it just turned into this whole mess. And, it was a little--it was, too little, too late. But, um, you know, I think, I think in the end, it ended on a higher note than I had expected it to, for whatever reasons that it did and so like--I lost track of the question, I'm sorry. I hope that answered it. I'm just going to stop now. That's okay! (laughs)

01:09:46.170 - 01:14:29.730

I got off ________(??) Everything started melding together. (laughs) No that's okay, I actually, uh, like, another follow-up question. [It] was that, um, do you think that that idea of that popularity coming to you as a senior was because of a change in the younger girls, or was it more of just--it just happened to be that way, or is it because of who had you--who you had become as a person? I'm actually really glad you, you asked that question 'cause I should give more credit to the younger women. So like--the, the freshmen that came in when I was a junior, and the freshmen that came when I was a senior, so, the last two classes before I left, I don't know how we recruited them, but they were awesome. And it felt kind of--I felt kind of weird being the upperclassmen hanging out with the underclassmen, but at that point, I just sort of embraced my weird. I was like, "Well you guys don't like me, so I'm just gonna hang out with the ones who do." Um, but they--they ushered in this whole new era and like, they loved me. And it caused some disruption in my class because there were a few girls who were just because--not girls they're women--but like, people are just so bad at social media. And, they were drunk one night, and someone created this picture that, like, of me, they had taken my--and, they put like, a border around it because this is back when like, IMAX and Photoshop were like, really taking off, and they were like, "Christina: the pledge mom we wish we had!" And like, a bunch of them put it on their wall and it was (pause), it was rough. And, you know, a couple of the women who were their pledge moms were, like, "What is this?" And I'm like, "Why are you asking me? I didn't make this, like, why don't you go talk to your--to your little? Like, this isn't my problem." And, they like, stood up for me and they're like, "No, Christina didn't have any to do with this. Like, we just really like her, and like, you guys are like--" And they started defending me and for like--no one had ever really defended me like that before. And I really didn't expect it to come from women who were new in an organization. Because when I was new, I was just like, "Keep your head down, don't get anybody upset." And they just came busting through the door, like, "Don't be mean to her!" And I was like, "Me?" (laughs) It was, it was a huge change. And then, I think by time senior year was ending, I think the women in my class started to realize, like, "Maybe we should have given her a chance because all these other people who are like, doing really well, and like, changing Kappa around." 'Cause like, our recruitment numbers were kind of down and then after these women, it just (exhales) [went] through the roof. Uh, I think they were kind of like, "Oh, so this is the future of Kappa, Christina was just there a little bit faster than us." And, hilariously, one of the girls that (pause) really was not good to me when we were in school, I just saw her at a wedding, not long ago, and she was so happy to see me. And I know it's been a long time and I've, you know, I've really--aside from having conversations like this, like this is so far behind, you know, in so many ways. But it was, it was very odd. Like, I wasn't like--she came up and she hugged me and I was like, "I don't think you've ever, I don't think you've ever looked me in the eye before." You know (laughs), like I just--it was just very odd, you know, you have such a formative experience so, like, early on in your life and then you move into such different [note: video glitch, unintelligible]. And then it comes back, and you realize you never really got any closure on it. You know, you never really--you never really get to go back and tell your younger self, like, "Hey, don't worry, they're not going to be important later on." Because at the time it feels like everything, you know, and that's hard to hold on to and, um, to carry around. So, I know things are--they're different now, and like, we're all friends on Facebook and, you know, they tell me happy birthday and I'm like, I--Great (laughs). (Continues laughing) Like, I have no idea, like, what--it's just such a--it's just such a weird, weird thing that's happened. But, um, yeah, it--it is interesting. But, it is the young--it was the younger women that really, really helped a lot, I think, in that, um, and having my back. Well, I'm glad you had--you had a better experience towards the end. I--I empathize with the situation that you had to go through in those earlier years and even through senior year, but um, do you think, thinking about these memories now and just thinking about those experiences, do you think you would have done anything differently after joining? Was there anything that you wish, like, "Oh, I wish I would have done this? Or I wish I would have, changed this around?"

01:14:30.700 - 01:17:09.400

Yeah, I think the only thing I wish I would have done differently was, (pause) you know, I got--I got really wrapped up in trying to make friends all over the place because it was the first time I had freedom, and I don't regret any of those friendships. But, (pause) I do wish I had been a little more proactive to have gotten to know some of the sisters who were kind to me. I think I just got--I think I just got scared that if I spent more time with them, they also weren't going to like me, so I just sort of stayed away. But looking back on it now, I think that that wouldn't have happened. I think they would have been excited to have gotten to know me but, um, I was too afraid to take that chance. Yeah, and thinking about, you know, those friendships and relationships, have you kept in contact with anyone from your chapter, other than the Facebook friends and seeing people randomly? Um, a few. Some of the younger women, actually, I've been to their weddings, and, you know, we chitchat here and there--you know, no one from my chapter ended up where I was. And so, like, it's also just kind of difficult with distance. Most people stayed in the Midwest, a few went to the West Coast--a lot of people from Drake end up on the west coast, actually--very few end up on the East Coast, so like, I'm sure--there was one, one of the women from my chapter, one of the younger women who was--who became a good friend of mine. She lived in DC when I moved here, and she was a part of the DC area alumni group for Kappa. So when I moved here and--I love her, she's incredible. Becca, she's just a force of nature--and she was like, "You don't have a choice, you're joining this group." And I was like, "Oh, okay, great!" And then it--you know, I was there for less than a month, and it was like, "Great, now you're on our executive board, you're my co-happy hour chair!" I'm like, "Great, have the girl who lives in Virginia and has never gone out in DC before, show you where the bars are!" Uh, but she was great. You know, it was just funny. But, um, she was the only person I knew from Drake's Kappa that was--that's been here that I could really keep in contact with. And a few of those women moved back to Minnesota when we graduated, but of course, they weren't really going to keep in contact with me. And so, you know, they all spend time together, but I never really, I never really did. Um, but I made my, my Kappa friends, which is now my largest friend group in DC is--is through the alumni group out here. Yeah, and um, actually one of the questions that I had was, how has that affected your life like, since graduation with the alumni group, um has that changed--how has that like, affected your view of Kappa as a whole?

01:17:10.700 - 01:26:13.100

Yeah, so, you know, when I graduated and went to grad school moved back to Minnesota, like I--I was interested in doing some of the alumni stuff, because, there was one alumni advisor that I had when we were in undergrad, when I was at Drake, Barb, and she was so cool, and she always made me feel so comfortable, and she was always happy to see me, and she remembered me, and she owned, like, a little restaurant in town and she always gave me like free chips and was just like, you know, fun. And I was like, "Oh man, Barb is so cool." So when I graduated, I was like, "I wanna be Barb, I'm gonna go--I'm gonna be an alumni, and I'm gonna go hang out with the undergrads, and I'm going to find the weird girl in the corner no one's talking to, and I'm going to be her friend." You know, like I was like, so gung-ho to be Barb. Um, so when I moved back to Minnesota after grad school, I joined the Twin Cities alumni group because I lived in the city for--in St. Paul for a little bit and they were super sweet. We had like nice events, they came over to my apartment one night, like we helped with the, um, University of Minnesota Kappas chapters, like some of their stuff that they needed alumni to help with. So like, that was really fun, but honestly, if Becca hadn't lived here and I had moved to DC, I don't know if I would have ever joined this group. Maybe I would have found it on Facebook, maybe I would have went to a happy hour or two, but, I don't know. I don't think I would have made it a part of my life, I think it would have just been something I attended. But then I joined the advisor--like, the--excuse me, the executive board--and that was, April of 2015, and I'm still on it. I was President for three years (laughs), like it's just it was a big--it's become a big part of my life out of nowhere. And um, I also joined some, uh--I joined a committee through actual Kappa headquarters, and it's a diversity, equity, and inclusion group. It's one of the only Greek houses--well at the time it was one of the only ones that did--other ones are starting [note: audio cuts, unintelligible] now. But like, we rewrote our policies, we put out the second policy of accepting anyone who identifies as a woman, we've been really going through and doing a lot of that. So like, they've flown me back to headquarters and really value my opinion, we meet all the time. If you would have told me in college that, like, Kappa would have cared enough to ever fly me to headquarters, I would have--I don't know what I would have done, I would have just fainted. Um, but Kappa headquarters and the women who run it including the president, they--they treat me with the utmost respect, and they really want to hear what I have to say. And, I went to one of our conventions, which happens every other year--I know hou--houses do it differently--but like, that's--we do ours, you know, every other year, and I went to my first one 'cause I was president of the group out here, so I flew to that for alumni business, and through the entire weekend, I caused quite a ruckus, which I know seems so surprising. And, you know, (laughs) went through and pushed forward a few different initiatives that was really important that we do. Um, I guess they're both public now, so it doesn't matter, I can talk about them. The first one was eliminating our legacy policy, because it is so entrenched in white privilege, I mean, it is so terrible. And the second one was allowing for alumni initiation, so women who weren't able to join Kappa or Greek life at any point in their life--not any point--excuse me, through their collegiate career--whether they didn't get to go to college, they couldn't afford it, there wasn't Greek [Life] at their [college/university]--there's a million reasons why women were not able to or not allowed to, we allow--you know, we let them go through the process. We interview them, and we have--we bring them in as sisters, no matter the stage of their life. And I know it's not just Kappa, a lot of houses have a problem with that because they think it sort of [note: Christina uses air-quotations on the word "detracts" in the video file] detracts from the undergrad experience. And I just walked up to a microphone in front of all of these women and I was like, "It's not pie, you know? Like, it's not less for you if these women get to have it." And I just, broke down on the floor and I was just like, You're all terrible! I didn't say that, but I kind of went through a little bit of that, and I was just like, (pause) you know, I was like, "I bet I was not that far off from being cut out of my house from, you know--or like--not being let into any Greek house." I'm like--and, you know, there's a lot of reasons and it was like not understanding that is--how--how we're going to move forward. Like, there are so many women who want to be Kappas. And why would you ever deny the chance to have a sister who's enthusiastic when every sorority around the country is facing problems with alumni engagement? Because, there are other opportunities for us now, and there are other things to do, and people have a problem with Greek Life now, so like why would you turn away someone who wants to do it? So, anyways, after that, I really thought people--like I really thought headquarters was going to be really mad at me, but instead, they sort of like ran me down and they were like, "You! Tell us more of your words. What do you have to say?" And they built--they are wonderful. They were like, "Look at us; we are very old and white, like, you help us." and I was like, "Oh God, okay, hi." And you know, we have this committee and it's full of all these incredible women from all different walks of life, they're all on the committee for different reasons. And, I mean, it's--it's really wonderful and Kappa really, really takes what we say seriously, and really wants to hear from us, and so, it seems counterintuitive that me, someone who was like super so far on the left, and not straight, and not Christian, and not white, and is all of these things would care so much for a sorority like Kappa Kappa Gamma, but, I think with how much they try, and how much they really want to improve, like, I--I very much am--I very much like to be a part of an organization that's--that's growing, that's evolving. You know, you never stop that, and our alumni group out here, the board has always been the most welcoming and wonderful place and has allowed me to sort of take a seat at the head of the table and help shape the way the organization goes. So, my alumni experience in Kappa has been one of power, not in a bad way, but has been making me feel powerful, you know, and I--I will always be very grateful for that. I'm just very impressed and, just--yeah, very impressed by everything that you've done and, just thankful that there's somebody out there that--who really does care about this kind of stuff in Greek Life. Um, and I guess one of my questions would be, from your experience and what you've gone through, what you've accomplished, what is something you would tell to somebody--what would you tell somebody who had just joined Kappa? Um, one thing I would tell them is, you know, push your chapter to do the right thing, and if your chapter is not doing the right thing, go tell headquarters. You know, there's a lot of--I mean, I'm sure you've experienced this as well--but like, each chapter is so different based on what part of the country it's in, and like the women who were really mad about alumni initiation, they're basically all the southern schools (device dings). And so, you know, I didn't have the opportunity when I was in undergrad to have anybody to go to talk to and say like, "Hey, like, I started telling some sisters that I am dating a woman, and it got to the wrong sisters and one of them called me a, you know, the d-word." Um, so like, I didn't have anyone to say that to, I felt really alone. And so there is a part of me that's like, if someone's just joining, no matter what part of the country they're in, if someone says something, you know, they shouldn't say, like, drops an n-word or whatever, you go--you tell headquarters, if you want to--if you want to fight it. But like, I know that it's hard because you know, it's so easy to be branded a tattle, you know, there's just so much--there's so many hard dynamics that are there. But like, if you really think there's something your chapter needs to change, and your chapter won't do it, you go straight to--you don't go to your advisory board because it's probably filled with women who are just like it; you go straight to headquarters and you tell them and we will handle it. Like, we have an entire committee filled with Incredible women who are there to help make this work. So, like, that is something I would tell a younger woman joining Kappa. I don't know what I would tell a, another younger woman joining another greek house, aside from like, you know, hold your head high, you know, don't get lost in the fold, you know, all this stuff that they normally tell you, but, each house handles it so differently, I'd be so afraid of giving bad advice. I can always say something that someone's entering Kappa with, you know. Um yeah, definitely. I think that advice would work for just about a lot of houses (laughs). But, um, I guess one of my last questions relating to just Greek life as a whole is, is there something, that you want to continue to see happening in Greek Life, in terms of the changes and developments that you've seen personally or just you've seen on a broader scale?

01:26:15.100 - 01:31:04.100

Yeah, you know, I think one thing I'd really like to see, like one of the big things for me is that like, I would just like to see Greek Life stop being so expensive, especially like the historically-white houses. I mean dues are just--I mean this is insane, and like I understand that, like, there are certain things that you have to cover, but like, (sighs) I don't know. There's just--there's so much (pause) overhead, and so many fees, and so many--,just, so much money and there are so many incredible women that could really enrich any of our organizations who just can't do it because it is not economically feasible. Um, so that's a huge change that I would like to--I think that--I think that barrier to entry is just, it needs to be torn down. Um, and then, I think, (pause) that's the really big one. I mean, I'd like to see, you know, obviously more diversity across the board, you know, as like, as a now--as an adult, a proud Greek woman, you know, Greek lettered organization woman, like I--I want other people to feel the goodness that I have now, which is why I'm so excited about alumna initiation, 'cause I think it's a good phase for some women to enter into it as. You know, so, like, I don't want there to--I don't want people to feel like, especially--you know, and we just had a woman who alumni initiated who's in her 50s and she's Black and all of her family is Deltas and she was saying that, like, it just wasn't a good fit for her, she found Kappa, she fell in love, she went through us. But like, she waited a really long time to do this, you know. I don't want there to feel like there's such a, such a--like, a gigantic chasm between, like, traditionally-white houses, and you know, the Divine Nine and the Greek letter organizations, like, because they are, like--the Divine Nine and Black Greek letter they're____(??)--They've been shunted off, they've been treated as others, you know, and, you know, a lot of people who join them_____(??) You know, that I've heard through different Greek channels that I've been a part of, of [Black Greek letter organizations saying] just like, "We'd love to get to know you guys, but it feels like you've never really wanted to get to know us." And so like, ___(??) as we move forward like, we are never going to reach like full Greek, camaraderie unless like, we are all on the same page, and so like, that's something I'd really--I really like to see, you know, us all being, like, put on the same pedestal as--as opposed to othering those houses. Well, thank you for that. I--I think that really is a very powerful sentiment, and a goal that I also would like to see the predominantly-white houses, kind of shoot for. Uh, so thank you again. And one last question before we conclude and wrap up is, is there anything that you wish I would have asked--anything, like, you wish I would have asked you more about, or is there anything that I missed, or anything like that, that you wish I would have asked? (pause) Um, well, you didn't ask me what that huffing noise was, which is my fourteen and a half-year old dog walking through the living room and I can't get her to stop--no. No, this was great, these were really insightful questions. Um, I wasn't sure what to expect, honestly. I--I've been interviewed before for like other random things but never about Greek Life. So, you know, it--you made me feel comfortable answering candidly, you know--like that was my experience in undergrad is something that I'm open about with other Kappas and like, with my partner and stuff, but like, I think you're one of the only other people outside from that that I have, you know--and I'm not ashamed of it--it just you know, I don't ever want a paint--like, I don't want to paint Kappa in a bad light or my chapter, you know, it was--that was my experience, and it was--never felt malicious, it just felt wrong, which to me are two different things. But no, I think you did, think you did great. I have--I don't think there's anything else. I definitely don't think I could have expanded on anything more than I did (laughs), I don't think there's any other questions I was hoping you'd ask or think that you should ask. I think if you didn't I probably made my way there on my own, so. Well again, thank you, I think I've said that enough, but (laughs) thank you so much for sharing your story with me. And I'm--I'm really appreciative that you felt comfortable to talk with me about this and, um, just to explain more about your experience ___(??), and where you've gone after that, um, but this has been Fontana Micucci interviewing Christina Motilall have I said that right?

01:31:04.600 - 01:31:10.700

(nods head). Okay, perfect. And I think that's about it. So, thank you again. Thanks.