00:00:02.100 - 00:05:55.400

Yeah, that would be great. Thank you. Okay. So this session was planned in January that it was ambitious session and that I wasn't 100% sure whether we were going to be able to track any, I was going to be able to track anybody down. That was had worked with me on this project. I left Cleveland 2004 and so really the project the Cleveland homeless oral history project started in. Team 96 and there were a series of four interviews that were done then and then really picked up in 99 and 2000 and so we'll focus more on the 2000 period for reasons that you'll soon understand why. So it's been nearly a decade since I've been here but through the various social networking and not I don't mean Facebook and things like that mean calling people up and and making phone calls. Fact of the matter is, Dawn actually has a cell phone, which has been great. Don was, this is Don Messick. It happened to Don. Actually. I, I'm sorry you guys want to say so, so Don and I are going to have a conversation today and I'll do it more. Introduction in a second, but we also hope to have Ralph pack who is going to be here. Some of you may remember he was once on the cover of the oral history review. The one that was focusing in using shared Authority as a technique. That that included My article that later got reprinted in the oral history reader. And then we were hoping to well except for the problem was Ralph pack has had his head. A stroke this summer and has actually moved to West Virginia. Another one of the narrator's, we hope to get it's just been extraordinarily difficult to get a hold of Robert Jackson who worked very closely with us on the day, laborers, organizing committee. And then we hope to get maybe Bobby Mulch and who's moved to Florida. And we tried to track down a few other folks. And I'm the kind of Last remaining one of the original people from the day, laborers organizing committee and low-wage workers union and Dan's efforts to bring them out in the open, the discrepancies and some of the bad things that were going on between temp agencies and them taking advantage of the homeless population in Cleveland. I was homeless, I became homeless and June of 2000 shortly after that. That I met Dan. He used me as an interview subject, about some of the problems. We were experiencing working for the agency's. Number one, extremely low, pay, the average pay, there was 515 an hour. I don't know how you can expect anyone that was in a homeless situation to ever, get out of it at 5:15 an hour. So I kind of I don't know whether we just bumped heads or just exactly how we met, but it was, what happened? As a result of us meeting. As a result of us meeting. We had a whole bunch of good things happen. We were quite active. He channeled. My energy is, I'm 59 years old. I graduated from high school when I was 16 in 1970 and in the 70s, we had a lot of political activism in the late 60s, and all Guy became part of it very early in my life happen. When Reverend Martin Luther King was assassinated. I was getting high school and all my buddies and when I see my buddies and it didn't matter if you were black or white, we did we were just friends. We didn't have that social stigma about a person's skin. We are just old buddies, football players, baseball players. We're all together and that a lot of the black kids got. It up and marched out of school, Sam. Where are you guys going? We're going to go March around the block. It's all right, come on, and there weren't too many white kids out there. I was one of them. So, you know, we had the Vietnamese War. I was very active in that. I was in the first year of the draft lottery when you depending on, where your birthday, was your the days of the year. Went from one to three hundred, sixty five. And if you got high number in this draft, and that would be your birthday was in the latter part of the year. You wouldn't go. But if you had a low number, you were pretty much. Sure you're going to go to Vietnam. I was very fortunate or unfortunate at the time. I had a ruptured appendix on the day that they were doing the lottery and my surgeon said, don't worry about a thing. You're going to be for f, and you'll never see anything in the military. So I got lucky there. But shot down at the shelter, he was able to come on in to the shelter and that Cleveland's largest men's shelter called 2100 Lakeside. It's an old warehouse and light industrial area. Right off of downtown's, not far from here. At all. If you go straight down, Lakeside, you hit East 21st. That's where the shelter. Is it still a warehouse except there's people in it instead of things.

00:05:56.800 - 00:06:47.500

Some of those guys are still there from when I first got there, that was in June of 2000. I've had my apartment now for seven years. I live on the far, west side actually, in the neighborhood. I grew up in. I've been real lucky. I found public housing at extremely low rent, like nothing. I have a hardship exemption. So I only have to pay Seven dollars a month for utilities. It couldn't get better than that, but I'm active in my building. Residents called to there. But that goes back to the shelter because I was on the residence council at the shelter, but Dan brought out the activists in me. Again, if I had a long history of drug and alcohol abuse. I've been sober. Now, I think in March, it would be seven years. That's a a blessing. Well, it's

00:06:48.500 - 00:07:25.900

interesting because we, I vaguely remember the first time I make you, which was We had had this was after those of you who are familiar with my work. We'd already done the video. Oral history project and had had some workshops at the bishop Cosgrove Center, which was a meal site in a place where people could take because you take showers with. Yeah, you could go in there and they'd give you a hygiene equipment, you could get a razor and some soap and things and just stay clean. So right? They shelters would always kick you out during the day, you'd have to leave it.

00:07:26.100 - 00:09:58.300

Clock in the morning, would be allowed him to late afternoon early evening. So we had created through those workshops. This idea that one of the key things that people wanted and needed to do is to organize regarding the day, labor agencies to improve the labor conditions that people have been talking about in the interviews. And so, we went to our initial founding meeting of what was then called the low-wage workers union until Some of the Union's got upset with us. Using the word Union. This is a whole nother story. But later became the day laborer, laborers organizing committee. So we had our initial founding meeting and that's, that's at least where I first, remember you? And that's because Don was extraordinarily outspoken, and opinionated, and I'm the youngest of seven kids. If I didn't have a big mouth, I can get it and we had In this, in this meeting, we were trying to deal with the day laborers, organizing committee. And he kept on saying, you know, but this conditions in this shelter are awful, you know, and he didn't care that, we were in the shelter that he could potentially be monitored by the staff. He was, he was like, you know, we need to focus on what's going on here, which was the other theme, but, you know, so he kind of kept those threads intertwined because he was, he was living in the shelter actively. In the creation of this group that was called the low-wage workers union first and really building it from the ground up. And what I mean, we weren't of the first things we ever did was outside of the shelter's was, I think we went to City Hall city, council meeting and talked about the problems that you were having with the agencies, taking advantage of the homeless people. The agencies would send a van and a driver to the shelters, and the staff. Would just let the driver into the building and the driver would just make a simple. Now. It's when I need 20 guys to go zone. So you'll make $7 an hour, blah, blah blah, and we'll 50 people would all of a sudden mob is kind of like shooting fish in a barrel. If you wanted a worker to do some of the crappiest jobs in town. You just went to a shelter because those guys, I mean, we needed money. We were starving for money.

00:10:01.200 - 00:11:18.100

Unfortunately, most that money never happened. They lied about the wages. They lied about the conditions of the jobs, lied about the fees that the agencies would charge the workers. They charge you for transportation. They charge you for safety equipment, which is like a pair of safety glasses they did and they don't always get the equipment back at the end of the day, a pair of gloves was like a dollar off your chat. And those cotton gloves that are people More or less disposable. You got charged up up for those, you got charged like three dollars for safety glasses, and they always got them back. You got charged for cashing. The check. There is a window right next to the pay window and they had a separate business in there. That would cash checks. The check cash. You would pay a little commission to the temporary agency. And by the time you worked 8 hours at 5:15 an hour and meet your maxing out at like 40 plus dollars, but you're getting $10 in stupid deductions taken off right from the start and that's not even to speak of city tax and state taxes in federal income taxes. That's coming out of your check, too. So you're lucky if you walk out at with $20 at the end of the day

00:11:19.000 - 00:11:47.100

and the homeless Community, which I mean, there's no income. You're homeless. This is a really simple formula, you know, you want workers to do crappy jobs. You go to a homeless shelter, park out front in 15 minutes later. You got a van full of people ready to work. So that was one of the things that I went to City College lunch, kind of kind of got their attention about and you know, you're this this is like, this is

00:11:47.100 - 00:12:09.300

definitely Deja Vu. I mean these you just clearly articulated everything that right there and one of the things, the very first thing that I remember that we did was we formed a petition that was directed towards the shelter provider, which is salvation. Me demanding that the

00:12:10.200 - 00:12:52.900

leg day. Laborer agencies. Follow a code of conduct. If they were allowed in and our code of conduct was like they had to provide healthcare insurance that provide living wages, you know, it was very high which they were never going to. It was clear. They were now we're going to do but we want to get their attention and and I remember the Salvation Army had on its board. The one of the head people from Minutemen Minutemen. But he's the son of actually about Federal felon that started Minute Man temp agency. He was he was busted for like organized crime, and gambling. All this other stuff, but that's besides the point.

00:12:55.000 - 00:16:31.500

So, what happened? You remember, what happened with the petition? Well, the petition actually did set some guidelines. I kind of took it upon myself to kick a couple of the temp agencies drivers out of the building. They came in and started talking about jobs and they were getting mobbed by people and I walked up to it one guy and I said you got to get out of here man, and he goes for you. I said, I'm nobody but you got to get out of here and said this has been one of the first things that we wanted to see. Don was you can't recruit work inside the shelter. Go out the sidewalk is public property. Do you can do whatever you want on the sidewalk, but they were walking in just, you know, like it was their house and they could go do whatever they want. And I was working for the agency that I told to get the hell out of the building. So I didn't know what I was going to, what the repercussions might be. But I didn't care. Kind of outspoken is dancing well and at the interesting thing was I think we had a lot. Out of these discussions at the at the time we had started a radio show as Adan alluded to earlier. So that was kind of the next phase after the video project and a lot of these these issues, you know, people were legitimately concerned about the ramifications about criticizing the Salvation Army. There are concerned about the ramifications of and this is actually within the actual Ation, Army shelter self they were concerned about, would they no longer be able to get jobs, right? And so to some extent, the folks like you and doing, you know, talking about these issues and doing it very vocally. I mean, you almost kind of made other folks feel as I understand, right? And you have one thing in common, you were homeless. And the way I looked at his, what could I Lose? I'm homeless. I don't have any money. What could I lose? What can you actually do? I was a little bit afraid of being kicked out of the shelter was Dan and a director for the northeast, Ohio, Coalition for the homeless. Brian Davis was his name at the time. They promised me that if I was active in something and there would be any kind of not so much meeting of the Mind. Where is like a shelter? Had one idea. I had another idea that that no matter what I did these guys were going to stick up for me. Never to promised. I'd have someplace to sleep that night. That's all I needed. You know, I kind of took off from there, like lightning Rocket Fuel is, I was ready to go out King Kong. Come here, you know, I'll get you. He's actually I think what you remember and this is my memory. Of course, is that that you were you were speaking well before Any first of all, I was only a grad student. It was making, sometimes you guys might have to like hold me down a little. So I never told you that I could provide housing, good kind of, but I kind of made that up. I think through your ability to speak and say these things

00:16:31.500 - 00:16:40.800

actually within this very hostile space is being that people you are facing real threats. I mean that we couldn't just go to City Hall

00:16:40.900 - 00:17:00.100

because I remember that took a while for people had to talk a lot. We actually have to get an invitation, wasn't it? Well, we had to get an invitation but more importantly, as I remember. I mean, people were afraid. We were there was threat that you'd never get another job through the temp agency that which one is simple ones

00:17:00.200 - 00:17:28.800

and when they spoke, you said something about them being. Not such a nice word, but about them being bad that they would cut you off from any work. I was going to employ, they could always count on me when you spoke. I mean, at City Hall, there were there were the directors of these a day, laborer agencies sitting right there, very visibly. And so I

00:17:28.800 - 00:18:04.600

I mean I'm working for them remember and it took quite a quite a bit of Really quiet when I spoke about. Remember the room, got very quiet because we never knew. I mean we got to walk out the front door and it might have had a hit man out there. Some, I don't know, but they couldn't, they could have easily said, no more work and that just gave me more fuel for my fire. That's it. Now you we've gone to City Hall, we spoken out. And if you do anything to, you know, prevent me from getting

00:18:04.700 - 00:18:41.400

Work to your agency. I'm just going to go there again and say you did that. Now. I got something else to add to the fire. So and they make, they kept me word. And I really didn't have to watch myself. Well, I mean, the funny thing was I think actually some of the people who are the harshest critics almost. They almost went out of their way to get you job so that you'd be too busy to come out Jacobs Field and right now it's Progressive Field. Its face Ballpark and the Brown Stadium, which was just being completed at that.

00:18:41.400 - 00:20:41.700

Time would always have a bunch of really crappy. Jobs, cleanup jobs are Browns, team is always playing in a lousy weather. A lots of snow and UND dome stadium. And so you would get hired to go down there and move snow. You know, you got to go all through the whole stadium and get the snow off the seats and then you got to get it out from underneath the seats here. So there's always a lot of work to be had. You know, it's crappy, work you froze, your rear end off but and then in the baseball park, it was just dirty, filthy nasty stuff that people would drop down. They do their beer would end up on the floor. Their popcorn was all over the place, you know, and whatever else it was a lot of other things that weren't so nice, you know, drunken Baseball fans. Don't have a lot of control. It's a you never knew what you were going to be stepping in or anything like that. And you could always go to the temp agencies and get those kind of jobs and they would employ hundreds of people every day to do. That kind of work. It was seasonal, what it was worth doing. Were there other jobs that you did? You remember? I actually got lucky. I got a job in the In the basement of the of the Indian stadium. I was working in a warehouse. All the concession stands after Erie stock every day and I got on that crew and was actually a really good job. They gave me more hours and I want if I work eight hours to Lady knew that the temp agencies paid his crappy labor wages and and she would add extra hours on your ticket. You get to work ticket said how many hours? Work and she would only give you like 2 more hours because she knew we weren't getting paid are gazing and she wanted to keep a few. It was hot and I worked there for every day throughout the year until the you know, until the end of the

00:20:41.700 - 00:23:16.600

season and come March again, you know, I could go right back to work. I work, too. I work to a couple plating companies and pleading companies are terrible. They use a lot of really toxic chemicals. The one place I worked, they were plating truck bumpers for Ford trucks and he sings really happy. They're like 80 pounds and they go through a series of washing his in acids and Waters and things like that and then they go through a plating process. Well, the wraps are still dripping with the acids, no matter how far along the process. Again. It actually burned holes to my skin. And I sued Minutemen and I want and they kept me working. So I don't know whether I'm just lucky here or what but you know, it was terrible. I still have problems with it. I'll never get paid enough. Those are kind of job said that really there's a place on the West Side called The House of Pain. And it's filthy dirty, heavy work racking parts and they have a crew to go sleeves from the shelters every day to go. Do it. And those guys come back looking like, they just climbed out of a chimney, very unhealthy standard should in these factories and they use temp agencies to get their their workers. They don't want to hire. Normal employees, because their employees, they have to pay hospitalization have to pay different things like that. You don't have to do that to homeless people, and very few of them will have the sense to speak out about it, or maybe the The craziness to speak out about it that I did. But, you know, there's something to really did get change through the agencies. They didn't, Greek, they didn't recruit as many. They didn't recruit within the shelter. They actually have stopped coming even to the sidewalk. You got to go to the agency itself. And if you're willing to go to the agency, you've got to consider that you're going to be, you know, doing some crappy work jobs, but at least now, they can't go to the shelters and get you. So some of those things that we spoke about It did make some changes. There were small. They were slow in coming. They were changed. Now, do you remember any of the other other? I'm wondering maybe for giving a false impression if we make it out like it was just the two of us.

00:23:16.600 - 00:25:56.800

No. No, there were there were some other opinionated people that were there with us. The one seller that. I mean talk about jackpot having some really terrible happened to worker. There's an agency down here on West 9th Street. In the warehouse District to Cleveland and he was out in front of the agency and a car or truck, jumped the sidewalk and hit him, but it was on a, the agency's property and he was seriously, seriously under tyranny. We thought he was going to lose both his legs. He's he's better now. He's never going to be 100%. Goes to a lot of pain every day and everything, but he literally one millions of dollars in a lawsuit behind it, but only Because he was tenacious about the, you know, he just he knew his rights and he stuck with him. And I mean that's what built this country knowing your rights and sticking with. Yeah. That was Bobby Mulch and who's going to be out? Who was the idea was to have him here, but he You know, during the midst of his legal case, he was very much. Also speaking out similar to you. Which would he said work? So he just keep got right with our the program that. Dan just channeled a whole bunch of people's energy. He was really good at that. You know, Bobby was allowed. Well, gee, that sounds familiar. We had another fellow Robert Jackson, very instrumental or if there's quite a few women, That would speak out with us. You know, we had, how many people went to city council. There are, I believe 21 day laborers who testified and all of them very eloquently. The women had stories to tell they were just terrible. They would take the safeties off of machines like a punch cross. So you got this thing. It's coming down with tons of weight and stamping out, item to put holes, and piece of metal or something. And they're working at these machines with no safety. And they take the safeties off because the machine would jam all the time. And a regular guys or regular gals, not going to go do that job too, but you could always get someone from the homeless Community because they needed money. That should ease in selling the shelter's. They've adopted a program where they pay some of the residents with a call stipend, to do the regular maintenance that has to be done every day in a building.

00:25:57.100 - 00:27:31.200

When you got 400 guys running in and out of white one bathroom. You pretty much need a full-time bathroom crew to keep helping Blaine, but just a general cleaning and building repairs maintenance and stuff like that. These guys blog by special, Section of the other shelter where they have a permanent bed may receive a little bit of money. Every two weeks to do. Those little jobs. That's a source of income. If you're a smoker, you know, I smoke cigarettes. I know my dr. Doug hates it. And I like that but it's the last place I have. I always tell my doctor, what's up, you know, that's five dollars. Six dollars a day for a pack of cigarettes. And when you if you're only making 20 bucks a day at the end of a day's work from labor agency, that's that's a quarter of what you've worked for all eight hours or goes towards a pack of cigarettes. That's pretty terrible, but the women were just they were Doing just the filthiest work and it was tedious with the one girl was telling us about wasn't it. She was stacking Q-tips or something like that. I don't know if you know about her, but she will put Q-tips in a box that was your day and we were not the cotton. Just wore the skin off of your fingertip to fingertip true wrong. Do you remember when you did a lot of interviewing I took over cuz you had your being you still had to go to school?

00:27:33.100 - 00:28:26.200

Well, you had to you were working in these day, laborer agencies. I had it easy to somewhere. We were making about the same but I had a much easier job. I have to say that much but you You remember that project that we do there was two of us. Here's another fella John Davidson done. Yeah, John and I check over. And again, we took over the interview thing. When we have extra time. I'd come back and I had a I had a I was lucky. I had a locker in a shelter so I could actually have things. This is serious rampant in the homeless shelters. I was somebody trying to steal my socks or night. I said, what did you just wake me up? I'd give you a That wasn't the point. But I prepared all these interview papers and everything. It was a pretty lengthy interview. Yeah, we

00:28:28.900 - 00:30:06.200

remember what year was, I have it in my notes, but we have 2000 or 2001. Yeah, and we basically spent. I think maybe it was a summer actually was before the city council here in because we use the findings from that to kind of document. At what the day labor industry was what was going on in the day, labor industry, but you John Mark. I think there was Laura. Do you remember Laura? I thought there was another student Bobby Mulch and there was there was another student. I can't remember who, but in any case we gathered I think close to 100 different interviews over the course of that summer where we tracked all of the place. Is where people were working, a job, the wages, the various kinds of abuses that people faced in different situations. And in that interview she do is actually pretty specific which I think is pretty easy to do you just because there was really there was a Common Thread of problems and you could just check off. Yes. They experience this part of the problem or that part. No problem, low wages, long hours, hard work. Everybody's answer was yes to that, but there is other more specific items that he had asked. No, but, you know, we did you probably forgot this, but we actually we designed those questions as a group, or

00:30:06.200 - 00:32:12.700

maybe maybe no that was after you did that before. Okay, so we had actually had series of new three or four meetings, where we came up with this question, but thank you. New process was that it was not a short process. I mean, you'd sit with someone for probably at least an hour and You know, that's a long days but everything we really did get a lot of good things done. I think just raising awareness in general. Is one of the most positive things to happen, the actual laws, it did get change. The restrictions that got put on the agencies. They had to meet a higher set of standards for the kind of work that was being done. Yeah, we do. One thing. I never changed until the federal government met him was the wages. You've always got minimum wage to the federal government change, the minimum wage. You were working at the lowest level. So a lot of those people who are interviewed actually where the folks that testify. I mean not if there were 100, but a lot of people who ended up actually City Council meetings in the evening. That hearing was actually the week before September 11th. 2001. Do ya. I have just got back from Philadelphia because I went there with one of the guys from the from the shelter to take some kids back. They were student here from Czechoslovakia. Well, Czech Republic at the time. It was Czechoslovakia, but I was in Philadelphia and came home and we had gone to New York City. Got lost and circled the Trade Center like 10 times and is really quite a shock. You know, I kept telling my friend, I fell asleep because we were driving so long and I said do it just keep your eyes on those two big buildings. And but then I think the city council is

00:32:12.700 - 00:32:26.000

when they actually have Council meetings is in the evening as. Yeah, but do you remember? Okay, this is do you remember going through the jobs with Justice convention before city

00:32:26.000 - 00:34:50.200

council is another one that we need to remember about that? That was at the hotel and jobs with Justice to, there's a lot of people that work in the service industry house cleaners Food Services, things like that. They've been instrumental in getting a lot of a lot of changes in that industry, raising the wages and things like that. Because when you're in a service industry, you always start at the bottom. And I don't care how many food programs. You. Watch this Chef, might be the greatest guy in the world. But everybody in that kitchen starts at the bottom, you know, your dishwasher before you do everything else and you getting a minimum wage, but then they got some things done as far as like the hotel's just like We're sitting in these housekeepers have really long hours and only have like a couple minutes to clean a room. It's amazing. I mean, they have to crank out like a whole bunch of rooms in a day. Well, it's interesting and because we went to it was not in this hotel. It was in the Sheraton down the street on it was on Lakeside st. Clair Mi might have been Sinclair. But in any case we had a banquet, we put together a panel for that conference. And then afterwards had a dinner, the president of the hotel employee restaurant. Employee local was at, at the And and while we were actually eating, I can't remember where you on the panel. Or were you the one who is catering? The event. No, I wasn't working at. Can I get a lot of food service? Haven't still cook a lot. So you were on the panel. I was on the piano so he was on the panel, but, but it became clear that everybody catering. This event was homeless and lived in the shelter and working through the day labor agency. And so we brought the president we brought all of the these Caterers who are working to the hotel employee restaurant, employee union president. And this was a unionized hotel and said, hey, look who's working in this Union hotel. Can they log in at that point? Now, that, that was when the union started actually supporting us, which

00:34:50.200 - 00:37:27.800

is why we had to change our name. It was so cool incidental. Needless to say, I'm outspoken. So I was like I knew just about everybody in the shelter or different shelters and everything. We'd all. Go to same food sites that were available for breakfast or launches and we all got to know each other and we carried, we kind of carried the spirit of the whole day labor organizing committee. It was one of the topics of conversation whenever we sat down together and it was is very magnetic, you know, people got attracted to it. Things were happening right now. There's, I don't think there's a lot of activists in the shelter to shelters are being run, much better. The agencies themselves right now. The labor agencies are worst and GM, you know, you can't keep regular workers employed. It's a very hard to keep temp agencies working, but you always find a temp agencies. And injuries job, but they taken a big hit. They don't send out as many people anymore because you're just no jobs. You have to have a trade nowadays. If you don't have some kind of some kind of marker will scale. You're not going to find a job and labor agencies were there for Laborers. Ground-level work? So so in this was something that when we had gone to city council by the time, we got to city council. We hit already because of the jobs with Justice Conference, gotten the hotel employee restaurant, employee union behind us. We had gotten SEIU behind us who had organized the stadiums where people were working and AFL-CIO which at the time, this was kind of Did for those of you know, labor history, before this teams to win, split off, had also supported us. So that's why we changed our name in exchange for that. But, but because a week, after the city council here in which was kind of our high point, September 11th, hit that the hotel and a hotel employee restaurant employee union. Kenny. Look had promised anyone who had lost Lost jobs, could get jobs through the union hotels, but all the hotels were empty for

00:37:27.800 - 00:37:35.100

like, no one wanted to stay in a big building and socially and then all of a sudden it wasn't a significant

00:37:35.100 - 00:46:37.000

issue in the political sphere, even it local political level. Like the, you know, even though the day laborers in New York, where the ones who cleaned up the mess, right? The day laborers here, all of a sudden, this was no longer an issue because everything had changed even though it had And the jobs had stopped, but city council. We never, we never got them to pass the regulations. We wanted them to pass the Chamber of Commerce. When Cleveland played a pretty big role in the rescue efforts and the cleanup of all that the citizens of Cleveland donate. A lot of things to go to the people working at the site. It was like nine. Can huge construction. Dump trucks, that got filled with things like bottled water or is one of them. Got filled with dog food. So the right, they had the dogs in there, trying to find people Tools hand tools because you couldn't use, you know, electrical tools in there. They were still fear things exploding, but there's a lot of hand tools that got sent there. And it was really kind of funny because it came, they came to the shelter and An army got involved with it and they recruited a whole bunch of us to go and load all this stuff into the dump trucks and they were using Pittsburgh. It's like kind of a Central site in order to get things funneled into New York City. Could just couldn't bring it straight in in New York because it was a mess. You know, there's there's no traffic coming in or out of New York for a long time. And this was immediately after the incident. So, actually I ended up Is all the Death. So some of the Thunder, a lot of the Thunder got stolen from the problems that we were trying to address again Channel and other things. I still stayed active. Yeah, we didn't have as big a drum to be anymore. Well the drum kind of changed a little bit. I mean we well to be fair. It wasn't completely changed because we did. We created the community hiring Hall, which was a lot of work. It was the whole purpose of the community hiring Hall when it's to start a temp agency run by the workers. Now run by a millionaire and thousands of people signed up to be on the work at all to the whole city and people all over the city signed up to be in this agency. I was literally the last person to sign up with the agency walked in and I register with and they said we Going to start taking people today. And we're going to stop right now because it reached couple thousand people or whatever that our quota was and it was really funny. I got one day's work and I was happy because at least we had something that was created by us. And it did work there just weren't any jobs because the whole 911 things and I think the 911 was to some extent excuse but There were lots of other things too. Like the change to win Coalition ended up having a serious negative impact on this local effort. Because the three people in the local labor movement that had been allied with us, were basically kicked out that's when the hotel employee restaurant. Employee unions split off with SEIU and it's it was complicated story, but locally what that meant was. The Union's who had agreed to negotiate into their contracts, that this, our community hiring Hall that we built and created would be the first choice provider for all temps, never followed through on that. And then the second piece was that the city governments were supposed to use, our community hiring hall for all their Landscaping. Sole click Lakewood Shaker, Heights and I think Shaker Heights did and liquid. But the city of Cleveland I didn't want to get with the program, they because of, I think I believe because of the way either the financing was taking place of campaigns or because of the power of the Chamber of Commerce refused. Even it refused to use the community hiring hall for its Landscaping. So the city of Cleveland actually takes on those landscapers. I think it's kind of like permanent / temps because it's seasonal. I know some guys that got a job with the city, but they wouldn't be working all year long. It was kind of like, just during the summer. And they'd end up working on garbage trucks. A lot of them ended up working on garbage trucks or were they go to clear? Lots. In the inner city, we were abandoned cars and you never know what's in these laws. They get to dig it, put on jobs like that. So eventually the community hiring Hogs closed down in 2008 and it could no longer there. It wasn't getting the jobs after, actually, the city of Cleveland refuse to enter into a contract. And then the contract that they had were Shaker Heights ended, they could no longer sustain the hiring Hall. Well, I had left the shelter in my actually. I moved into my apartment December 1st 2005, so I didn't I would like, On the ground is much. You know, I wasn't in the shelter to do as much because I was trying to get established out in this new apartment. I was homeless for five and a half years. I was really happy to be out of there and have my own place and moved in there with a bag of blankets in the bag of clothes and I was Bob head, everything else kind of appeared but my efforts got chained. Got channeled into self-preservation. Really, I'd still go down to the shelter as I Do volunteer to his day down in the shelter's. I do speeches for the northeast Ohio, Coalition for the homeless. They have a program called the street voices speakers Bureau, taking homeless or formerly homeless people to go out and tell their stories, like I kind of just did here. And just to raise awareness to the problems in the homeless Community you do you have a picture in your mind of what a homeless person looks like she usually, you know, somebody's dress shapley or whatever and that's farthest from the truth, a lot of suits and ties. She got guys at work uniforms. You got it, you know, there's no set homeless look, You know, you don't get issued a trench coat long hair, give regular people. We went through a lot of problems with foreclosure crisis. Regular jobs are, you know, the de manufacturing jobs just aren't there. So, I don't think we have enough people to get out there in the community as much anymore. They're claiming that they move people through the shelter system faster. I doubt there. It's my opinion now and But I still see the same faces every year at an event. We do call the homeless stand out. We issued winter coats and boots and things like that. I still see the same faces. Did I saw in June of 2000? I'm on to giving him to the line now instead of the receiving end. So it's good. Now, you also had this other role because you helped form the residence Council within the shelter. Yeah, the problems in the shelter were many women shelters. First opened. Hey, didn't know what the hell you were doing. Excuse my language. Most of the staff came from homeless shelters, themselves came through drug or alcohol. We have programs. They were clean for a while and sure they got jobs. Monitors, you have a lot of personality conflicts. If they didn't think you were trying to stay sober, you were immediately an outcast and you get to crappy end of whatever decisions were made. There was never enough food. I mean, there's just all sorts of problems to overcrowding the fire marshal. It said 400 people and is building a Nets at the director at the time. Thank God, he would

00:46:37.000 - 00:48:59.000

let anybody in. When they ran out of bunks to give you, they gave you a map and you sleep on the floor when they ran out of match, they give you a blanket, you sleep on the floor, but they'd run out of blankets every night, you'd end up using your tennis shoes for your pillow, and throwing your coat over yourself, but that was very much against your insurance. If anything ever happened, you know, there's the Salvation Army would have had to pay dearly if anyone has ever gotten her, so they had to cut that out. They had to keep to this part Marshalls. But they were throwing people out of shelters for the slightest, little problems. You had an argument with her staff member you get kicked out and they didn't care if it was like zero degrees out, you got kicked out. So we got together and with miok and I know Dan had, it was working with a lot of us. Anyhow, trying to get the homeless, people speak up for themselves. We start a residents Council. A representative of each area in the shelter has a great food shelters down into communities. They call it the homeless shelter, but I was in emergency Community. You would work your way up through the shelter system. Like if you had a drug or alcohol problem, you go into a rehab car of it, and if you had a job, you're supposed to save money. You go into a work area and in each area, there was a few more. So you get like actually have cable TV in the shelter. So I mean some guys would like TV they're going to, you know, do what they can to watch TV all day. So they go into the rehab section, you know, they got to attend a couple of AA meetings and they can watch TV all day. But I kind of stayed in emergency shelter part because I wasn't going to kiss anybody's butt, and a lot of the choices and where you ended up in a shelter came from, who you knew and who you you've befriended, and who you sold your story to her whatever. And there was no real authority to, like, set the guidelines. And so, we got the residents college to go on and we actually started to get things. In the shelter, if people are going to get kicked out. We

00:48:59.000 - 00:50:49.100

got an established that you had to find some place for them to go. You just couldn't put him out on the street. So they have to get on the phone and call the other shelters and we'd have that person transported to another shelter for the night. The personality conflicts that might get someone banned for life. They had a phrase that they would ban you for life from the shelter and that might simply be because you got in an argument. There was no real set grounds for that. Well, we got to establish just set the ground. The we had guys, going to different communities. We sat down in a room discuss the problems of the week. And then we'd bring the shelter's director in at the end of our discussion. And we throw the question to him. What are you going to do about this? What do you do about that? At least we got a voice to the hope that the people, the residents and shelter have a means of getting their problems her about there, were changes there. What's clear guidelines? And what was going to happen? There is a mediation process that went into effect. If you were banned for whatever. Or kicked out or somehow ostracize, you have good. Graces of whoever was working at night that you had a chance to say, you're part of the problem. Thank God, I did. We are able to get things like that done because it's made a big difference in treatment of individuals as human beings in shelters. You know, you were just another number for a long time. They sold. Most people try to run homeless people for a while. They're hurting. It was like it's like Dodge City for a minute, but that was, that was some of the good things. But you is that I remember correctly. You're making it sound a little easier than

00:50:49.100 - 00:51:14.500

it really knows. Because I always tell you sure you and others like passed around a petition that I think there were 500 people staying in the shelter, and I think at 300 of them had signed it demanding that the Salvation Army get kicked out of the shelter. And we didn't want to Salvation Army, the right place anymore show. And then if I remember correctly, you went to city council with a March of

00:51:14.500 - 00:52:05.200

approximately 300 people at the Salvation Army, get kicked out and that's when they decided. Okay. Well, we'll let you have a residence. Yeah, they had no choice really cuz we were going to get somebody's attention, and we're going to make our Point knowing until we got something done. And I see I couldn't get kicked out any one of those nights that I did. That I tell about other people getting kicked out. Like, I'm just right there. I could have got kicked out too. So that, at least we got it. Something just, I wish if I did get kicked out and find me someplace else to stay. So anyways, funny because I was able to get the directors phone number for the Coalition for the homeless. If I really, really had a problem, I could call him at home. He never had to use that one. I know why. I think they kind of like, fear did. I would just go straight to the top and and

00:52:05.300 - 00:53:57.200

City Hall and the Plain Dealer and every newspaper in town and tell him, I problem, which I did. We made it into the paper a couple times, Dan. And I and a couple other friends. Fine Thomas Lewis. You remember the time we slept in an abandoned home? It was literally a crack house. It was real funny because it was right behind a neighborhood organizing committees like offices. And there was an abandoned house and plywood all over the house and people were sneaking into this house and using it to get high drink, do whatever they wanted to do inside of it. All, the plumbing was shot. It was all torn out there. And we went in and tore the plywood off the front door and camped out to raise awareness for housing, awareness day there supposed to be a National Housing Trust Fund. To rehabilitate houses and turn them back into places for the community to live. And in every major city, you got probably hundreds of buildings that are would make active, you know, living quarters. Your people, an old Warehouse could easily be turned into a multi apartment building, you know, they're doing it in every city and town. They're doing it a lot around here where some of the old knitting Mills and things like that, that used to occupy the areas right around this hotel have been turned into Condominiums loss and things like that and we're talking big money. They're charging for these. Well, there's plenty of other abandoned buildings just On The Fringe of downtown that aren't as popular because there's

00:53:57.500 - 00:55:50.300

light all over the neighborhood and it caused way too much, do the whole neighborhood. I've always had an idea about Sweat Equity. You got a lot of people in shelters that are talented, very talented people who can't swing a hammer. Who? I mean anybody can swing him or anybody can carry wood and redo one. He's buildings in my goodness. If I could get you on the crew and we re doing building. I'll give you an apartment for Life. Your get some businesses in on the ground floor. Turn into a transitional shelter or whatever, but they've got the money. They don't know how to spend it. They don't know how to get it from a national level down to a local level and find the right way to spend it. Since morning, that's just sitting there and we were just talking about the right next to the hotel. Is the building the medical Market. Yeah, it's real funny, it construction project out here blocking off the streets and everything. They don't have anybody to be in. They've got like one or two contracts in companies to actually display in this medical Mark thing. They're building it and they're changing the face of downtown, but they don't have any set contract. It's supposed to be. Another site for a Convention Center supposed to be a full-time medical. Mar. As far as I knew Innovations in medical technology and most of, that's really big machines. You know, MRIs cat, scan machines, things like that, that are going to become much more developed. But why would you want to put one on display when you'd rather have it in a hospital actually working? You know, I can show you a picture of this machine and what it will do for health and You want to look at the

00:55:50.500 - 00:56:32.700

machine itself. It's not doing anything. In some reason Warehouse or showroom. It's doing something when it's in a hospital, says that that's the whole premise of this building at equipment. I'm Medical Market. I mean winning and show you hospital beds. Uh, nurses desk, come on, let's let's reassess this thing. It should be something that we can get jobs out. Not just put things on display. They don't have one convention signed out to go in there. So I wanted to ask you about the radio show, and if you remember the role, of course they did. We just listened

00:56:32.700 - 00:57:15.400

to it, but obviously, Sure. Big mouth. Good. Laugh is necessary. Dan was a Case Western Reserve University. And at the time they had a program called Frost radio. There's a talk show frosted for free radio on straight talk using ideas on the airwaves. There's always something that was You know, that that was it. I was clinically active website. That was the name was

00:57:15.400 - 00:57:23.900

determined by Dave. The homeless president came up with that self-proclaimed homeless president. He remembered him as the homeless mayor but

00:57:23.900 - 00:58:51.100

I write I had real with her mayor-president, you know, it's very nice guy used to sleep out in town on the corner of Main Street downtown and he stayed out there and Worse weather, but it had those heat vents that are coming. There's a building downtown flavor, right near the men's shelter that produces heat, and electricity and air conditioning, because you have a big building, you'd have to have another third of that building just to make heat and air conditioning for the one building. There's a Factory downtown. It makes heat and air conditioning, and they piped underground to the other big buildings. And he slept, I had one of the safety events. So it was really warm and his ten is really nice and Dave was very active. But we Dan invited me out to the college to the radio station to speak up about the homeless situation. The one thing I was asking the people that the listeners to do was to donate blankets. We always ran out of blankets every night. I don't know why but blankets disappear so quickly on the homeless shelter. I don't know where they're going. You'll see him on the side of the street. Once you're on deck in around downtown. We

00:58:51.100 - 01:02:02.300

used to have a lot more people that camped out rather than go into the shelters. You don't see as many of that those individual camps anymore. I think it's I think it might be because police presence, you can actually see. It's legal to sleep outside anywhere in downtown or anywhere anywhere. As long as you're not. Using any drugs or drinking or you have any kind of warrants? No matter what kind of Warrant, it could be of trafficking or whatever. For those reasons. You can be arrested and taken off the street. That was something that used to happen here in Cleveland every holiday season. The mayor's would almost declare war on homeless people, and they make the rounds of all the sidewalks and all the little Corners under bridges and thing and run. These Go through the system and see if they had any legal problems, any outstanding warrants. And she made sure they didn't have already open containers of alcohol. Make sure they weren't using things like crack or heroin in their little camps. But you could legally sleep outside. That was one of the things that we got changed. We every year. There's a count that's done right around the holidays because it coincides all this enforcement used to happen right around the time that they light up Public Square for Christmas. So it was right actually right around Thanksgiving, this would happen. So now there's a count Where people from the Coalition for the homeless and other college volunteers and different people go out and actually take a census of the different people that are living on the street. That number is, declining more and more and more every day. I think it's because they claim that their turn to shelters over faster. They very well could be it's been a long time since I've actually been in there, but I could walk in there now and see people from the first day. I was homeless, but somehow I got at that doesn't count because they left for a little while and it came back or whatever reason. But we went out to the radio station and talked about the situation with the delay, the labor agencies, what was going on in the shelters. And this is this Quite a while ago. This is you know, at least 10 years ago and they didn't know how to run a shelter. They had one as you they had to shelters in Cleveland, had any kind of history in one was run by the Salvation Army. And the other was independently, run was a the City Mission which actually started in downtown Cleveland not too far from here and moved to the outskirts of down. Job East 55th Street, but there are Faith basement sheltered. You have to participate in religious programming and not everyone wants to do that. I was actually in a homeless shelter before I hit 2100. I was in this

01:02:03.300 - 01:02:15.400

place called st. Herman's House of hospitality and you had to be in there every day by 4:00 and you had to go to church and you had and it was way too many rules for, you know.

01:02:16.200 - 01:03:11.700

Not so recovering crackhead to go through. So I don't even ask about two weeks down there. Yeah. Famous intro. This is Dave the helmets president. You are listening to radio bringing the crystallization of new ideas to the airwaves. The views expressed in this show are not necessarily going to WR u w or Case Western Reserve University.

01:03:26.400 - 01:04:14.200

This all makes it sound like I'm the only guy who did anything, but I'm not, I'm really not just the only one Dan could find. Now studio with a special guest, Don method who's been a longtime activist working with the day, laborers, organizing committee. Sure, the levels are working here. He's a longtime activist working. With the day laborers organizing committee. He's also has been selected. As in particular though. Wanted to go. Do you want to introduce yourself out to the listing items and give people a little bit of your personal background? Sure. Good morning. You are. Ew. Listeners. And this is just let you know by

01:04:14.200 - 01:04:27.300

listening audience. Pretty much covers the entire city of Cleveland as well as the suburbs. The Metropolitan regions hero station has a lot of impact is, oh, yeah, great. Great.

01:04:27.300 - 01:05:04.500

Well, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm a homeless guy who week. My name's John Dodson. I'm such an ass approximately a year. A place I stay at is downtown homeless shelter for me, an old Warehouse with now. We told never actually had to live out on the streets. I was fortunate is blessed me and providing shelter for me. I have to thank Salvation Army and all those citizens and help them only

01:05:04.500 - 01:05:52.800

shot. We have. Proximately 400 men as residents down there and and said, one of the men that speaks for all the rest of men. We have a few men and sit on a residents committee where we give our input to help programs and Deal with issues in that do exist in our community. This is just a brief question for you. So, in case I have a different question, I think this is the only time I ever heard you say something nice, about the Salvation Army. I think it was, it was probably because I just said the entire city is listening to. Yeah.

01:05:53.100 - 01:08:13.900

Yeah. It's I probably got it. No, I was just a guy who stuck his neck out the furnish. Maybe, I don't know. Well, I don't know. You guys who you're right. There were a lot of people who stuck their neck out, but it did it struck me, at least that the, the radio show was one way in which people actually kind of practiced practice sticking their neck out in ways that, you know, this is one of the spaces where you start a in amplifying your voice to these broader audiences discussions that we had been having In those smaller spaces, the rooms the kind of smoke from the back of the shelter down on Public Square. The dock the food not bombs space downtown. Did you come to food? Not bombs a couple times. A couple times that college students would go basically two dumpsters not necessarily dumpsters, but they get food at the end of the day from like maybe the vegetable stands at the West Side Market. They were always vegetarian meals that they prepare. But they take the food that would normally be considered Scrappers. You'd have to trim the bad parts out. Well, I think you heard me save seven kids in our family. Mom. Dad that made nine. We trim the water bad parts out just didn't order to eat. So that's nothing strange for me, but they provided a meal, a public meal out on Public Square. Now was every Sunday afternoon. 3:00 3:00, or 4:00 every Sunday afternoon is always be nutritious. It is always vegetarian. It also always be like fruits and vegetables that the people could take home with them. And it was real funny because you'd see people that literally came from the west side and the east side that weren't in the shelters. They were homeless, they had local places of their own and they come there and they pick up their vegetables for the that would get them to the next. Couple days a week. There's always a lot of extras that would be left over at the end of a market day and it needs, it was a way for that to go to good use. But that was food, not bombs.

01:08:18.100 - 01:13:43.400

Yeah. Well, okay. Why don't we go ahead and why don't we open it up to discussion or questions? I mean, you know, it actually kind of just what I needed, you know, it had to be like, starting to make me flower. So to speak, you know, I just needed somebody to expand my Horizon a little bit, not because that I was a drug addict. Okay. I was a crackhead. It's a very selfish thing. I just cared about that. I didn't care about other things and it was a way for me to start to care about other things. It was a way for me to get attention to the homeless situation because it lets out a mess back, then it was a real mess. There's a lot to do to change it kind of channeled my energy. Was a good thing. I'm sober now. So it was a very good thing but it was little things. Dead, damn, played a crucial role in channeling my keys. In and the hole. Taking on the man, you know, I was out there. If I was a 70s guys, so that's what we did. Situation of selves and four. Chicago. That's just kind of that. There's other people, too. About when I was a kid. The lady that lived next door to us real nice lady shoot, her husband had left her and she had a couple kids and their house caught on fire and they had to move out for a while. And there is a guy that knocked on her back door, and he was obviously Back, then we called him the hobo. Now. I've done my my mom's kitchen door. And he said, do you know where your name happening? Mrs. Dabney was yours a dab. It is. And she goes, well, they had to stay with somebody else because the house caught fire. It was all she used to make me Bean sandwiches. And my mom is like, what's a bean sandwich. And it was a piece of bread, and a can of beans and being sandwich and she goes on. No, she goes. Are you hungry? We had nine people in the house. We always had something to eat and we always had something a little extra in case somebody else drop by. And so my mom made him a sandwich or warm, something up or whatever. And he thanked her greatly and whenever he be back through town, I imagine that he rode the rails because there was a railroad track not far from our house and they would have a circuit that they do. Anyhow, they also have their own private signposts thing language. So to speak and evidently he marked something on our house or on our sidewalk, or But they would make like a good person, Mark a bad person Mark, or whatever, or you could get a free meal here or without really strange. Because after that we had to clean his yard in a neighborhood. I mean you just pieces of paper work like disappear, you know, empty empty boxes or something.

01:13:44.000 - 01:16:54.000

By the time you woke up in the morning a box, it's gone, you know, and it didn't there is no wind. Okay, so we could only imagine that it was this guy or his buddies because every once in a while we get a knock on the door, some guy would, you know, asked me could mow the lawn or do anything? We can I weed your garden or something? My mom would make him something to eat. No to be politically. Correct was among those people. This is actually a new word. It's back. Then in the 50s. It was bombed and hobos and Winos and that's what we call them. You can't call him that. Now, let's homeless maybe in another 20 years are going to be like Urban explorers or something, you know is what it's going to end up to be a think ahead. There's a theater, troupe in Cleveland, it puts on a play every year and they come out of One of the shelter's men's shelter and they put on a play at Cleveland Playhouse down in Gordon Square Park, part of Cleveland County West Side by Detroit Avenue, and they put on a play and he's you guys and went through drug and alcohol we have. And it's usually something about that the story revolving around that. but, The women that shelters and Cleveland are really screwed up. We're losing beds for women. We're getting them for men. There's hardly any for families. A family. Did it family doesn't last very long men, go to a men's shelter. We're going to a women's shelter and if the kids aren't teenagers, they can go with Mom. If they are teenagers, they have to go to a teenager shelter. So there's only like literally six or eight beds for family. Yeah. What time do they close? Piece of paper to explain it better. It was like three different. We're together. They had a noose over his very much about homeless children. Okay, and it was a

01:17:06.600 - 01:17:49.800

wow. We're getting it. Was it a newspaper? Yes, okay, because there's a homeless newspaper and it's a dollar and a quarter. The vendors for this newspaper. It used to be called the Grapevine. Now. Let's call. No, San Francisco, street sheet is a sheet of paper. It has a list of services

01:17:51.600 - 01:19:03.200

but it's actually a national publication. We had the Grapevine Grapevine kind of went out of business. I think it's called the homeless newsletter here in town. I think it's something as simple as that. I wish you had a sophisticated way of getting the money. I would have a tendency to believe her. It's kind of funny, small world, a small, small world. Now, one night, one. Other thing that's kind of related to what are your earlier questions is, is when Dawn came? And when we started, when we started, it was really after we had developed the themes through a workshop process. Is for the interviews. So by the time Dawn started, we were already going gung-ho on the two themes that were developed to the workshop process. Happened to be the very two themes that Dawn was like really interested in was day, labor agencies to address the issues there and to address the conditions within the shelters, which was also related to

01:19:04.100 - 01:20:23.200

maintaining the. I remember I was more interested in getting changes in the shelter than any. Yeah, that's true. It was a mess. Let's see if we can hardly have our first meeting without him letting us know. That was, like, Bloodhound now on, you know, so and that and that was also related to a Dave, Dave, the homeless president's think theme was to maintain the ability to not have to stay in the shelter, which is why they were protecting the camps. And that was why actually why you can now sleep outside legally? That what John was saying was because there was the effort to literally sleep on Public Square where we were doing the interviews that led to a legal case that led to an injunction and finally led to a decision that made that the law in the city, but the themes that were emerged out of that were those were the two that we focused on but the other one had to do with the rise of the criminal justice system at the criminalization which also include the criminalization of poverty on the The streets had to do with the transformation of the downtown business district, which led to the loss of all the chief hotels and rooming houses that were downtown day when you called and flop house and

01:20:23.800 - 01:23:11.600

you get a room for a night and it wouldn't cost you a not real life, you know, but when we built the Cleveland Indians, stadium that wiped out, like a whole bunch of my, I don't know how many exactly, but it wiped out. Like hundreds of hotel rooms that would be available by the ninth between Cleveland States expansion and the Progressive Field. Back. Then I was Jacob's feel all of that and the basketball stadium, which is quick and loan arena. You should be Gund Arena that wiped out all those places, all those little apartments always little one bed, one room. You could actually buy a nights that when you work in an agency, a temp agency, you could afford to buy one of these rooms and a pack of cigarettes and your bottle of wine or whatever you want and still have some left and that just changed the whole thing. That's what made homeless, big business in Cleveland with the establishment of the the men's shelter downtown in 2001. A 2000. There's a, it's a multi-million. Industry. That was a that was a big theme that kind of went through. Lots of the interviews was the idea that homelessness is a big business and that, that was something that almost seems like a paradox, right? How can people living in a shelter? Be a big business, but and that had to do with everything from understanding the day, laborer agencies, benefiting from it, the actual, the actual shelters, the prison industry, Tree. And the police see also had to do with the downtown developers that are building these, these new sites had to do with what was going on. In the residential. Neighborhoods are don't h o beat up, broke down, plywood covered Dawn for a long time. Right off of public squares are new casino. That was a department store. That was a Cleveland version of Macy's over there that turned into an abandoned building for. Twenty years or more. Probably 30 years, something like that. I think it was last active in the 70s. But two others, actually. Three other department stores. All went out of business. When you had Urban flight when people started leaving the city and going to the suburbs and then they created malls and then all those businesses that were in

01:23:11.600 - 01:24:34.700

downtown and made downtown. I'll really happen in in place. All went out to the suburbs, downtown Cleveland was like a bomb crater, almost it, you know, there was nothing left. And then they started slowly, but surely coming back when they started, bringing it back to a big sports event, big Sports venue. I should say, could, you know, you got actually Four brand new sporting venues in downtown. You've got Cleveland Browns Stadium. You've got the basketball plays. You've got the baseball plays, and you got Cleveland State University's Wolstein Center, which is not only a concert venue, but they have athletic events and things like that on there and it was from the sports that all of a sudden. Everything else started taking hold. It was a few bold people that came in and said, yeah, we're going to turn, you know, this place into a restaurant. Now cleanliness like top ten food joints in the world, you know, you wanted. Destination. Come to Cleveland now. And that's kind of, at least been what they've been after is the business traveler to coming to Cleveland State in nice hotels like this. You

01:24:34.700 - 01:25:28.900

couldn't walk close to this hotel without somebody paying hammer and that was up until about two years ago. When they built a casino, they cleaned up downtown. Again. They got all the panhandlers out. They actually put in like parking meters for donations for homelessness. Night of what password? There's actually a couple, there's a, the Jones home, which is a nursing home. And there's also Malachi house, which is a hospice.

01:25:37.200 - 01:27:01.300

Yeah, matter of fact, that's coming up. Usually? Right around, December, tell the st. Malachi's. I've been to a couple of them. I lost a lot of friends over the years. I mean it kind of sad but they woke me up in the middle of night to ask you. If I knew where this guy Bobby's if I knew anybody in his family because he and I were real close. So why would you ask me that? I was kind of upset. So that's why I'm just sad. But true thing I have to admit I was upset and then they said, well, Bobby died. I said, what what are you talking about? and it was like, wow, maybe I should be a little bit more, little bit, more aware of other people's health and stuff. My I might help is taken some serious hits lately. I have Crohn's disease. I've had Crohn's disease for, like four years and in the last three years, I've It's been out, had a rough way to go. But so I'm a lot more empathetic of other people's problems. But we do have, there are Provisions are very limited. The northeast Ohio, Coalition for the homeless, puts out this street sheet, and you really ought to pick one up and Cleveland. We have a central intake system. It's finally like being taken into a fact here.

01:27:01.600 - 01:27:21.600

Everybody goes through an intake. And it's usually done through 2100mah side from there. They determined what your needs are. But if you're like me, I lied, I mean when I walked into the shelter and asked me if I had a drug or alcohol problem. I say I don't want, you know, so I was used to find all the time.

01:27:22.500 - 01:32:26.200

But you know, I came out of that with, with help from a few friends. But there is a central intake and there are Provisions for that. There's no which actually like two weeks ago. I was trying to find out that for a friend of mine in Jones home and they do it by the in intake process and there's no openings. So it's kind of sad but true, but we have to wait for someone to pass on or to get better in order to find a better woman. Now. I'm doing shelters being built. Big. I mean, they're very Progressive as far as the homeless situation. Are you from Cleveland? Are you from Cleveland? In Cleveland? We have the United Way's, as a first call for help. They dial 2-1-1. And any kind of emergency you have whether it be a health or housing, or Is there anything you go through that switchboard and they'll direct your call to whoever it needs to go to? So it's really a very valuable service. Like, you don't have to hunt you, a phone book, in order to find help, you know, to on one hand, your got somebody right there. The questions comments. Yeah, which we could have found people to keep it going. You know, I mean, we've I had to go on, you know, I had to progress on but I still stay active and almost evening. I don't know how many of us still stay active and every year and I probably do six or a presentations. Volunteer, for this whole most hand homeless Stand Down. It really wasn't. A lot of people that wanted to pick up the ball, as long as somebody else was moving. They like be attracted to you. Danny had to get me motivated it, what didn't take much? And you know, it seemed when I left. I worked to actually get funding so I arranged I had a feeling that there was no one going to do what I did after I left and so I got a grant for 30,000 dollars to hire someone to do what I was doing for a year, but the problem was I never really taught anybody. What I was doing because they saw kind of me running around going to all these actions and Like that, but they didn't fully understand the importance of the storytelling. The oral histories, all of the conversations that went on. And so, to some extent why I'm working on, I'm really trying to focus in on trying to describe what I was doing. And so that people could be at least more effectively understanding and maybe how one could do it. So when I left they continue, I started this meal program that Don was talking about call food, not bombs. Herbs that we had on Public Square and they still do that to this day. People didn't understand really that the food was very important, but it was also about the conversations over the food, right? And that, and that the oral histories were way too kind of structure those conversations and to, and to deepen them. So that we could talk about these more bigger issues Beyond just, you know, what, the latest score of the Browns game was, right? And then the other thing was We through this project, once we started developing, this seems we started really working on those themes and then we didn't go back to the kind of spaces of reflection where we were thinking about. What are the larger issues in the storytelling just to some to some extent, especially on the day. Labor side. I think there was a degree of burnout because to set up the community hiring Hall require so many meetings and The end it was like we were meeting with people who were working in the nonprofit sector who are getting paid to me. And that's what they do. For a living is me, but

01:32:26.200 - 01:35:01.300

people who were people who are on our side were day laborers, who actually and they were the ones that put this whole thing on the agenda, but they didn't have the time and the energy and the ability to always attend all these meetings. So by kind of by the end after it was created, almost it became like an entity that no longer had the Grassroots, kind of support that it created originally. And so again, I think the activism to some extent dissipated the energy that was created through the storytelling, the oral histories and, and the, you know, doing the radio shows and doing the interviews on the public son, Public Square. And so, as we got more and more bogged down and going into meetings, to some extent, those things started becoming more. For all. And so by the time I left those things weren't really visible. And so the person who took over after me was orange caste and he went on to the east side organizing project and we and because we had 30,000 dollars. We had to house it somewhere. So we house it with the East Side organizing project and and so he ran ran in organized a bunch of protests, but then 30,000 ran out and everyone that was it, it was gone. Well, yeah, and you know what? We had tackled such a big thing and we had really have quite a few victories that things started to change. And actually, we were content. We didn't have that huge drum to beat. We had smaller drums were just as important, but they were smaller, but we made some drastic inroads on that. It's so funny. When you're speaking of an oral history project and homelessness has been woven through this, city is so many different ways that you can't have one without the other. Just just it's just so amazing because we seen those people that there's so many of them from the shelters that have moved on myself included, and we still come back and we still see each other. We're still saying. Hey, you remember when we did this and that we went to City Hall and I still see friends and we still talk about that. You know, the weig opens my eyes, damn it. We better,

01:35:02.600 - 01:35:13.800

you know, if I had to reach over there and open them up. And you know, the thing is, I mean, when we started, I mean, our very first thing we did, I didn't think we get anything done because we

01:35:14.700 - 01:35:29.300

dragged people, man. We were about to radiused and tag. Yes, you could have well, and you have to keep in mind. I mean, these Don wasn't the only acted like person who had been an activist in the past and, and to

01:35:29.300 - 01:36:37.700

a lot of extent what we were dealing with was just severe disillusion. It right like people, you know, it wasn't that people didn't know what was going on. It was like well, you know, you can't do it. There's nothing that we can do about this or this is not going to change anything or I'm going to lose my job. I know it's all screwed up. But and so so that disillusionment had a degree of politicization to it because people were aware of what's in the issues were but it was just this this kind of Almost the opposite of movement. I guess kind of paralysis really that that it was apathy a and it wasn't necessarily an apathy, because his disillusionment to me was like, kind of bitterness, right? Which is almost more active than apathy, right. But but we, you know, if I Ami coming, I came from New York City to Cleveland, right? And so to me, I I mean, the thing that made most sense to me, was, let's take over abandoned housing because I you talk about hardcore and this guy was Hardcore.

01:36:37.800 - 01:37:13.800

Well, I mean, he was a squatter Kemet. What did you guys call yourselves? Yeah, you're right. That's right. It's go out or so. I was a squatter. But, but the point is it's like I never would have come to Cleveland and say, hey, let's organize to a to ban, the labor agencies from coming into the shelters, but that was an important issue, right? That, and that and And through doing the oral histories of Storytelling, those sort of things kind of crystallized in terms of. This is where we can. You take a school project and really turned it into a movement.

01:37:17.200 - 01:39:27.700

Like I made a prior school project, we ought to work. So much -, you know, and it was all that negative stuff that ended up me being homeless in the first place to have something that would be worthwhile. It went wrong with me and it did went along with a lot of other people, too. These people have moved on to bigger and better things, we but that's life, you know, you move on. So we got, we go back to the all meeting together in the cafeteria to write down homeless shelter, you know, basically, so there's a lot to be said for just the fact of we're sitting here today. When sharing these thoughts, I'm quite proud of gone through what I've gone through. If I had ended up in that shelter, I mean, I know we wouldn't be sitting here right now. He'd be sitting here with somebody else city finals. They will track down after six months. They got me to become, I had taken, I went to Catholic High School. So we had speech and debate classes and things like that. And then I went to a public high school for the last couple of years and I was a little, as kid in school was a little, as kid at home. So if I didn't become outspoken and things like that, I would have been swept by the wayside a long time ago up and I guess the potential troublemaker. Of every crowd, I could always manage to stir up a little bit of crap everywhere. I want. So please my crap got stirred in the right direction. I don't know if maybe we should bring it to

01:39:27.700 - 01:39:28.600

close.