00:00:00.000 - 00:03:13.450

Go for it. Okay. I did try to stop cruising or did stop cruising when I became aware that I was addicted to cruising, to my hunt for sex. But I also realized I was addicted to my hunt for men, for validation, for a relationship, for someone to love me. It was sort of all tangled up in there. And another problem that I discovered was that - How I knew that it had gotten to the point of being an addiction, was I would cruise all night long. I could easily cruise all night long. And I wasn't having a lot of sex, because as I started to say, I was not always desired. And I didn't - I wasn't out there, just to - I consider myself a top. So, I didn't do everything. And, I also have never been - Well, I shouldn't say never, certainly in my more recent life, but in my earlier life, I wasn't a big fan of fellatio. So I wasn't out there just to suck a dick or suck as many dicks as I could. I don't have as much of a skill set as I wish I had in that area. I don't know that I can necessarily control what I like and what I don't like, but maybe there's a way I could. I just didn't - There was enough of what I liked to hunt for that I didn't have to necessarily try to like other things. But so if I was looking for some fine young man to to bring home and who would bottom for me, I wouldn't always find that. But I would still stay out there and I would still keep looking until I found someone who I felt was attractive enough that I wanted to have sex with. But then they had to find me attractive and so that could easily turn into an all night escapade. I mean, maybe in that, say 12 hours or six hours or seven hours that I was out cruising, yeah, somebody might perform orally on me, but they weren't trying to take me home or they weren't trying to get to know me or they weren't trying to come home with me. So I was still looking for more.

00:03:14.900 - 00:05:21.080

And so because I would cruise all night, often times on a work night, I still had to go to work in the morning, but I had been up all night cruising. Because I was up all night cruising, I would then call in sick in the morning and I would take a sick day. But because I was then off for the day, I would go back up to - I didn't call on my cell phone, we didn't have cell phones back then, so I would go home, take a sick day and then because I still had the day off, I would then go back to the park and continue hanging out and continue my search. Because people cruise 24/7, certainly in places like Malcolm X Park. There were always people there cruising. So, yes. I acknowledged that it was an addiction, and I went through some of the 12 step processes. I did greatly reduce my cruising for a big period of my life. Then when I did reduce it, as that was happening, the internet was becoming more popular. So I'm sort of decreasing the physical act of cruising as I'm learning this thing called Yahoo chat or whatever the various chat rooms or ways that you could meet people. So, one thing was going down as another thing was increasing. That's my story. Yeah, that sounds like it'd be difficult. It'd be a difficult habit to get out of, but then the internet coming up sort of provided another outlet. Absolutely.

00:05:21.900 - 00:07:30.000

Okay. This was one of my questions actually. So, I've heard people comparing online dating or apps or things to cruising, the face-to-face meetings. How did they compare for you? Well, I actually liked the apps and the online scene better because it was even more convenient. As I talked about, one reason I liked cruising was because it was convenient. Well, the apps were even more convenient because I could - Oh, and I'm also leaving out - There was a way, I didn't use it a lot, but there were the the chat lines, the phone lines, the sex lines. I didn't use that a lot. I used it a little, but that was also part of my history, but it wasn't as convenient. Whereas the - Because I think the chat lines, it was also a way to have phone sex. I've never really been big into phone sex. But whereas the online ways of meeting people, it was convenient because you could kind of get exactly what you wanted. In other words, you weren't limited in number of words, like I talked about in my initial, so you could see a whole profile. You could see what a person claimed was their picture and so you had a little bit more to go on. You could be specific, I'm looking for a bottom who's very much into oral sex who's less than 400 pounds. I mean, you could kind of get a little bit more of what you were looking for.

00:07:30.000 - 00:08:37.300

To me, it's a different form of shopping. You know, online shopping versus being in the store. But in the store, you see a whole lot more shirts, but that didn't mean all those people wanted me. Whereas online, I could talk to dozens of people in a night, and often times one of them would want me. And then they - Also, the other thing is, they had to be willing to come over. Because I learned I don't travel, I don't like to travel. Because if I'm going - If you're going to meet me, if I'm going to come over your house and you are not attracted to me, then I have to go back home and I'm disappointed. So you can come over my house and then if you're disappointed, then you can leave. And I can just turn the TV back on and get in bed. Right. So I liked, I liked online better.

00:08:38.400 - 00:10:58.000

Okay. That sounds like it was a coming around at the same time as same-sex sexual activity was decriminalized in DC and sort of at the tail end, maybe further along than the tail end of the AIDS crisis. I don't know. Did you even think about these maybe more national or newsworthy events that were happening in their relationship with how sex and online sex and meeting people were? Well I really don't know when same-sex behavior was decriminalized in DC. That was never something that was talked about, although it was always illegal to cruise for whatever laws they use, a public nuisance. But I never heard of anyone - I heard of people - Again, P Street beach, that was federal land. And Malcolm X Park is actually federal land. And so there would be federal officers who would come, and you just knew it was illegal. Sometimes they would - I wouldn't say harassed you, but they would tell you to get out of the park. It wasn't - I came in the 80s, I don't know what it was like in the 70s. I don't know if it was illegal in the 70s. I don't know if there was more harassment in the 70s, I don't know if there was some blackmail going on in the 70s by police officers, or the 60s, or the 50s. I mean, you hear those kinds of stories. But when I came, I never had a lot of problems from the police bothering you. Usually, we also had sometimes kind of signals that, you know, if somebody at the top of the park saw the police coming in as they were leaving, going down the bottom of the park - It wasn't really a signal. They would just say the cops are at the top or the police are at the top. And so you just knew to leave. They weren't trying to do a dragnet and round anybody up.

00:10:59.200 - 00:11:47.500

Okay, I was wondering about that. I mean again, as I know - I would hear stories about people who would get caught, but you usually - you only got in trouble if you were caught in the act of having sex. Not if you just got caught standing around. So even if there were rules against being in the park after a certain hour - They would tell you to get out of the park. They didn't usually arrest you. Now, perhaps, if you had a history of being stopped by the police, but then they would have to like, run your driver's license. And I never knew really of that happening. Certainly not a lot.

00:11:47.500 - 00:15:04.700

That makes sense. And I know we both have to head out at 3 but before we finish, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about or bring up that we haven't covered yet? I remember when I was younger in Woody's, I remember looking at - And again so I was in my 20s, I was new to DC. I remember looking at older men and thinking, I don't want to be like that. I don't want to be the - I don't know what I considered older. I didn't want to be somebody looking older with gray hair or bald, all the things I am now. I didn't want to be that person hanging out trying to pick up somebody in Woody's Tea Room, I do remember thinking that. But I've also heard friends of mine say that about the bars. They didn't want to be a dinosaur in the Bachelor's Mill. Although there were some people who were older in the Bachelor's Mill. And so I sometimes wonder how much of an effect did that have on my cruising life, where I made more of an effort because I wanted to kind of slow down. I don't - But I do remember thinking that. I do remember thinking that, but I don't really know that it was a deep thought, but it's still in my mind that I remember thinking that back in my 20s. I didn't want to be somebody in their 40s or 50s, still walking around, hanging out in the Tearoom. But now tearooms don't exist, cruising spots don't exist like they used to. There's still people in Malcolm X Park. Maybe once a year I feel an obligation to go through Malcolm X Park at night, just to see what it's really like. And so I did maybe a few months ago and there were still people hanging out cruising in Malcolm X Park. There's no more Martin Luther King Library, as I don't think that that's going to go back to Martin Luther King library. I really haven't gone out at night in P Street beach because it's just - Again, it seemed a lot more convenient to walk from here to Dupont Circle and I walked there to catch the train, but I'm not going to walk there at 11 o'clock at night. Yeah. And as soon as I say that, then you'll read about Donald Burch getting picked up at P Street beach. I don't have any plans to. And I haven't done it in many years, but I mean, now that we've had this conversation, I'm curious as to what is it like. I don't know. Yeah, and so I may go.

00:15:04.900 - 00:16:35.100

But that was the thing with the internet. The internet just made it more convenient because just having your phone, you can cruise 24/7, and you can't cruise 24/7 in person. Even though I gave it my best, but eventually you have to go home and you have to eat, you have to go to work, you have to go to church, you have to do all kinds of things. So no. But with the phone, I've been on Adam for Adam all the time and so you can just chat constantly on Adam for Adam or Grindr or BBRTS and so you never have to stop. That's so funny, Cedric also mentioned Adam for Adam. Adam for Adam was also one of our first sites and so for people like me who are old, you like what you like and you get used to it. I have some friends who go back and forth between sites, or have, I shouldn't say I necessarily know anybody who does it now. As you can tell. I'm not technological. I've quote-unquote, "learned" Adam for Adam and I just stick with that. I haven't been there in a few months, but it's still on my computer and I could open it up and see what it's like. Right. You know what works though.

00:16:36.100 - 00:17:47.950

Well, I know it works for what I'm looking for, and I mean, we have we do have a pandemic. So although I don't want to act like - I did have a lot of sex in the beginning of the pandemic. It wasn't intentional, because people had not been interested in me in months or years. But all for whatever reason, the pandemic people were hitting me up and I couldn't figure out why. But if they were attractive, I would let them come over. And then after a while I realized, you know, people are dying from COVID. Why are you continuing to - At some point you have - And so sort of halfway into last year I was very active, but then as the year trailed off, I said, well, I don't really want to get COVID and get sick and die. Fair enough. That is interesting though how all started happening right as the pandemic was also beginning. Well, thank you so much, Donald. You're welcome. This was lot of fun. I learned a lot and I will work on the transcript and get everything to you as soon as I am able.

00:17:48.300 - 00:18:08.500

Okay. How did we - Where did you place this ad? How did I hear about this? In the Village. Capitol Hill Village. Capitol Hill Village, right yes. If you want to email me an ad or something, just from you about your study, I'll forward it to people if you need more people.

00:18:08.500 - 00:18:14.100

That'd be fantastic. Thank you, I will do that. All right. All right. We'll be in touch.