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Are with friend. Boo? Hello, and could you tell us a little bit about yourself Fred? Growing up in Cleveland. Sure, you want to, you want to tell us what it what? It was like growing up in Cleveland back in. When were you born 41? When did you first come to Cleveland? I was born in Cleveland. OH. Were you born born right here? So, so it when she tell me a little bit about what it was like, you know, we hear a lot about the youth these days. So I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about what Your experience going up in there. I guess that would have been a teenager in the 50s. Right? Right. As a bad teenager, I cut School. I drank wine. I try to read about it and care for it. So I drink a lot of wine. Got drunk. A lot of times got sick, a lot of times and drinking. And believe it or not. I'm still drinking to this day. Hmm. You stay, you stay with your parents as Do It. Uncle and Aunt mother was unable to take care of them. And so, my uncle took me in her brother as on 25, and I love it when I'm 219 out of it. It's pretty decent Street, man. But I wouldn't best child in the world. Weather. Brother was me, I want to do what I want to do. I cut School. You know, love things started happening. I'm stealing. I want have been boys, industrial School. In Columbus. Got it. Lancaster. I stayed about eight months. Six months. The first time. They have any programs there that you could take advantage of Yammer to school even days. Odd days. I worked. Is it rough is rough? I've been with my home the first time. But naturally came to see me once a month visiting hours. I found a guy's 6 months later. Leaving that six months after I got out. I was right back in their state, about eight months of that time. I was in 58 and I could find that out. Tell

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her how hard can you explain a little bit about what that place was like, it was a at Cottages, you know, it's so maybe in the cottage that I can maybe 60 75 young boys and ages from 12 to 15 16. and, did margin go to the dining room and you'd Go to school. Then you'd work one, odd days, even days, you'd work with day, you know, one day at work, one day you go to school. And it had a church service on Sunday. What sort of things would they teach you in the school? Is basically the same thing to Cleveland schools. Have been headed there. Listen. Keep you keep you up up on your grades while you were there. And that's not just the math and the Sciences sides, with, McChicken. Whatever history English English. You didn't go to school. You didn't go to school though, huh? Use cut out a lot. Or do you go occasion cut? A lot of schools out? And to have vitamins put out of school. They cut you out all together because you cut so much. Out of school. about 15 now, but 16 my last time in bis, got to be as it has about 17. Sure that 1717. I was on my way to the Reformatory. Now tell me what that, tell me what you mean by that. I left him, boys. Industrial School a teenager. Land up. Still stealing at that. Got out. Hmm, and so in other words, I promoted myself into a man's world in and went to Reformatory. 18 months that time, 18 months. Where was that Mansfield, Ohio? Man has brought for murder. What was the difference there different as in his cell? Hmm. But no schooled in middle school and your school. You there. You have to work now, but no Recreation Alan's cell and had to go to work from work. I'd come back to my cell. When you go to the dining room, your market and your Maj back. That's a routine of 18 months. Hmm. That was on what year was that? 1959? Hmm. Was there any racism there? Yeah, whatever is my first time that yeah, so it's racism. You'd have okay, 50 sales. The first 25 sales would be. Why didn't it? From that image. That after 25, the next 25 been blacks. Tudor sale. And you land up, you know, go eat. They have any gangs know how they talk about the Gangsta. Lat. I went no games a man soon as it's a lot of fights. A lot of cutting and stabbing over and cigarettes commissary gambling. But he had, you get drunk in that. Now. There's making that Hooch, they call out of some peaches or some fruits that get some yeast, and they would find a way to get that Hooch in there. Just make it right in the cell that in the CMB. Dave's mayo, man, who gathered on the copilot naked, in the dining room would make it. It's faster way to stash it really, it was firm eight. Watching the demo turreted, make it. How about drugs? They have drugs in it. And I think I didn't Reaper. Yeah, lottery for this. My fans River floating around in there. Yeah, sure. Refund. So did you what did you? Tell me a little bit about what kind of work you did. While you and Evelyn tailor shop making inmates clothing. I did going home suits, the coach and slacks. and the end of pants, they were around me and Blue jeans with a red, stripe down the side or Scabbard black and white shirt that made them do rose and oppress them up there. That was for all the men in suits and things are all depended. Use in Ohio. There. She went to Columbus to Marysville. Chillicothe Marion. London. All those are the integers in Ohio. I'm naming that

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they talk a lot about the history books about in the 70s and maybe the late 60s. There was a lot of organizing political organizing going on in the prisons. Was there. Anything where their political folks in the prisons? When you were there back in the 50s, people talking politics and I will genetic How about the Nation of Islam or their dad? Muslims in their view. No, credit. Don't certain diets Nick. We need pork or something like that. Instead of being a special meal list or something. But there wasn't that activity that nah, you hear about lay down. Okay, not Mansfield. Do you think, what do you think about nowadays? They're talking about putting the young people in with

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adults. Has a person who went through that back in the 50s, both through the juvenile detention home, as well as through the adult center. I guess you were right. Now, you would probably be considered one of the Prime candidates to be sent to adult prison as a juvenile. If you, if you were a German juvenile, old man now, no, but I mean, if you were going up today as a person where they call you a recidivist person who repeat offender. Yeah. You What do you think about these policies? Do you think it do more harm, or do they do more harm White House L because they sent as soon as individual virtual rehabilitating. He is he learns out of another new trick once he gets there. Ready? Went there for everyone, all the fair for whatever he knows how to put a gun in his hand. He's got to get some fast money. How to sell drugs me to get on because he's anywhere at all these people drug dealers. Kidnappers murders, Reapers. They all in one big circle. You got to come in contact with him? A lot of guys doing 10 years that matter there. So it's basically crime University. You learn how to repeat yourself. I mean, you say that. I did 18 months. I never dreamed. I'd be your back, I'd go back but you know what? I went back to the same Reformatory and like they said, nothing has changed. I went back and be at 67 days for pro violator riding in a stolen car. Anyway, I got out this time. I was 21 years old. Is that the last the first thing I did in Mansfield there wasn't a bus stations, like a little store. You get your ticket? This bar, right next to me have my ID throughout 21. Just got out. My birthday, doesn't matter. Clean my whole juvenile Max up seen the maximum sentence was from 17 to 21. 2100 right into that bar and got me a drink double. Got on the bus in interview, road to Cleveland. And then what happened? Leaving that. That's the same that I was trying to break in some. Heading to go up and then go home. I didn't go straight off. You will was driving. You basically do

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want to break into the that place that night. I mean, just got out of prison drinking and we broke sure it was broke. What kinds of jobs were available to you at that time? If you wanted to go the straight straight route and what kind of work would you be doing? And why wasn't that so attractive to you? Kind of work out of doing was painting houses. Outside. You started that? Pretty young man. Yeah. But didn't it with the neighbors? Signs. Father had look. Painting business house painting into next year, decorating. And make a cake. Pretty good. But I made clear. They had a drink it up with your paid Friday by Monday. You'll all gone. Where would you go if you go, you know, there's some nice bars are just now. Where would you go drink? When granola bars, the corner and the in the schoolyards, hang out with some buddies With Buddies, girls and drink. Let's get some 40 ounces. But Nick Borealis is out then. No, I know the 40. Oz was then get some six packs, some fish and wine. The reefer was popular, then. Just hang out in the park and just drunk. John went about getting just getting high, get drunk socialized to the with no socializing. No. Just kidding. Get drunk been out, but you wouldn't want to do that by yourself. Now would you know, when do it by myself? No. So there must have been something to the fact that you are doing it with your buddies. All always drunks to along with professional drunk. Nothing you always talk about why you were drinking stories. You tell. He tells stories about being in jail or something like that. All the ones. I hang out with resin of the same caliber our the adventure, the same, boys, industrial School. Or they've been in the warehouse workouts, very popular than to nobody wants to us to the cigarette to be on the Shelf, which the occurrence of cigarettes. Oh, we going on me. Trying to go from 105. And Superior. Go to 105 and st. Clair. Minister along the way, the meat markets for the Fisher's stores and stuff like that. We're going since take stealing meat and then we got our money. Did you sell the stakes? Shut them to go to any pool room that we always sell steaks pool room or after our joints. So, you spend any time in the workhouse? Back then and it's been ordered to work house. Yeah, the old workhouse. I spent about waiting on the go to court County. Jail is so full. So transfer a prisoner to the to the workhouse. The Richer for the court date. Dragon back in back in from Lawrenceville back here, cleaving to bring you in. Your court date was as put about four or five months out there. Who are we other people? In the jail, like how from going through, especially the county, the county and the Lawrenceville. What was the breakdown of the population? Oh, what were they in for where they call you? If you have any serious crime? You could go to the workout, you know, you don't have no. Violent felonies, so we mostly white mostly junks and she workout would was mostly from misdemeanors. Should I think? You're drunk. Child support. But the county jail was so crowded is put some prisoners out there. It's a pretty pretty racially integrated. Then the workouts now. I mean where they what was the

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breakdown? Would you say between? How many of the population in the workhouse then was white? How many was black? It's about 50/50. Yeah. You think that's changed in a recent, a bit of workout sessions in the new one that I have to? Yeah. Yeah. I hadn't been out there. What do you think that when I wrapped it for a week all that? It's my property. I was on a chest pass trespassing. Well because criminal trespassing. Sure it's what I want. You to work out. Well, what were you trespassing on? Well, Place the project staying in one of the abandon ones absurd. Anyone abandoned projects the sleeping out this sleeping when they busted in on you when you're sleeping, they Trust me. I'm mature coordinate, seems you two more grounds? As I met the new workouts out there. They fingerprinted me. Smoke shot me. They said me that night. All that doesn't happen anymore. And do you know? This is no. I need to change clothes. Is there any ghosts in the bullpen? Just keep what you got on. I ain't get to bed. The next morning, woke up. I think they gave me an orange. And milk box. Cereal. Some nighttime. And then meow. Every penny in my pocket. I'm going through. It was enough to get back home that they didn't give a damn. This is another guy there. I knew he was getting out too. He have any concrete either, but we had a picture welfare ID. And me ask the bus driver explained to him. He had to work, has been having a property. We want to get downtown. We could pretty be of some assistance and he gives the Braden is, Right. Hmm. I have not been to work out since hmm. What would you say, would you say? In your experience, going through these workhouses over the last 50 years.

00:21:02.600 - 00:21:12.300

You see any changes in any of them or any approach that they take to to their philosophies in terms of incarceration or

00:21:12.600 - 00:25:29.100

change in the population of people who is incarcerated? They're like a cleaner facility is. But the worst prison ever been in my life. But so how can attend Cherie? That's a place that Brickey and make you or break you. When was that? Elgin. 60, 1960. Three. 63 would they what they get you for Berber? Coney, one of the bars now. Yeah. I was going to backdoor over bar. After the bar was closed, naturally. And they called me. I was drugged and trying to go in there. Then they arrested me. The police will arrest me in Umi you He said, that Shredder Fox, Lock me up, very fast, as Sarah. That was your moniker. That's what he called me. It caused me in a year. Give me 12 15 2012, 15 years at Burger King. You behaved yourself that, huh. I was glad to do that. I was lucky. And we're in the worst part about that. I was a pro board. and the person on the pro board, Boosted mine. He was my parole officer where I come out of mansur. You use my parole officer. Now, he's on parole board, and he could have been a help to me. You looked at me. Is he going to give you a break? We all have brought water miles and he was going home. Mmm. I did a year. He it was that the last time you went in for a while. Yeah, for a while, seven years later. When right back there. Same place. Same place. What happened? Same Burger again soon. Breaking into a bar. It was a I was a plan store. So you were pretty, you are pretty wild back in those days. Why was the word out of the damn? I was a food in those days. So, what do you think about, you know, how they these days to talk about how the young people are so crazy, compared to back in the old days. You think there's any truth to that? Oh, yeah, what's the difference didn't this? They really think they were not going to get caught. People are today these days. They think that and then again where there's synonym, you're not punishing him. They send a mature, some like a six months, eight months. For what? For okay, drug violation,

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hearing about the older people are the young ones is going what drugs, they going for a stem. You think it's, you think you should get more for having a stem. If they want to try and stop them from using them, but what rocks? But wouldn't you tell me this if you knew you could get six months for having a stem on you.

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Would you be carrying a stem on you? Or would you just by your stem with your rock? Yeah, that would. Every time I decide I was wrong to smoke a rock, advise them then, but you at that finish smoking the Rocks. I'd like to skim across but a dollar and six cents, so it's not worth it. It's not worth carrying around around. Nothing weird. Then you will get eight months for it. Six months. Well, let me ask you this. All right. You have some experience with the penitentiary. Right? Right, and you of all people know that the penitentiary isn't isn't the way to change a a person is not right. So if you have these young people, is it really matter how long

00:26:44.800 - 00:27:20.000

you going to stick them in, whether they have them for a stand with, you stick them in six months or one year, two years or three years. When they come out you think it's going to make a difference or do you think they're just going to come out? I mean, do you think it would make it? Is better, let's say if we stuck people in jail for three years for having a stem. Or do you think maybe? Using, that's all that those resources that you put into the jail, maybe in a different way like towards them. A rehabilitation or something like that, or

00:27:20.800 - 00:27:55.600

providing a decent job? A lot of that has to do with individual true. whether he or she wants to, Make a decision to put that behind him stab doing and using him. But I don't think there's no program. Going to stop a person from using drugs. No program got to be within any individual, sure, but don't you think there are ways

00:27:55.600 - 00:31:27.700

to make it a little bit easier for that individual to reach that decision. Yeah, it draws wasn't available to him. The drugs everywhere. Now will tell me this. Tell me this. Earlier, we were talking and you told me that at one point you went you went to Rehabilitation clinic, right? What happened? My medical coverage wind coverage? I really intention of staying there. I went dead end Road in. Medical bills last month. I've been to detox. And the council meeting at a detox at Harbor Lights. It's called and made a range from reading room and he explained asking I think with my medical coverage cover it. He said yes. Now, who's this? You kind of counselor at a harbor life? And what kind of medical coverage medical coverage, do you have Medicaid? So they so I'm gonna dish. That is going to cover that. So they give me bus fare one way to get there. I got there which is great there. You see, they're expecting you to go right there for it. I went straight there that get the interview, no assessment. Then the bed and then Mahajan kit. Cows, very slow. I'm still in for classes. Good morning class. The afternoon. Claire's in class. It was very helpful. And then gather there also is five or six other guys, and they Part of same problem. I so I felt right at home. It was no. Cheating outside note, watching TV and all that, we watch the news or something like that. And mostly read it in a book. Rehabilitation. That's what you're there for. A lot of us are from the courtyard, send them there. And so I I really Book Em Down. I was going to say, I've been in my mind that I was going through the program. Stay two days, two days ago about two days. You coming back in the office and say that my medical career was never going to cover it order for me to stay there. I had to pay four hundred sixteen dollars for every 30 days. That I'm happily. Since I left, you don't have that kind of money candle. So, do you think? Do you think?

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That would have helped if Medicare or Medicaid covered that sort of policy. Do you think that Perez is putting a little bit good funding there and that direction speaker for myself. Sure. You would have helped me sure because I never was that concerned about I want to stop doing drugs and I want to know. I had a reason I want to sit down. I've been doing it too long and you're going nowhere. You know, it's his rock bottom. This from anybody's about a missed out of doing it. I wish you'd come earlier, but then came they came. Yeah, that was a little disappointed but Medicaid would cover it.

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But you still got to do what you have to do. Do you got to do what I had to do was tell me this then? It's been

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about I don't know, I guess in the early 70s. When Nixon first started the war on drugs and really in the 80s when they really started, you know, making a full-fledged effort on the war on drugs and now we're in 2000. So we're talking about over 30 years, you know, I don't count list numbers of people have been put in jail. Yeah, countless a Dollars spent, I stopping so-called stopping the drugs. Do you think

00:33:11.600 - 00:33:34.800

that spending more money in that way or putting more lock and more people up, is really going to get the drugs off the street. It was not. That's for the do they want to drugs on the street. They would have been off the streets. So what are you? You're not the issue about the drugs off the street? Yeah, it's too much money and drugs.

00:33:36.400 - 00:34:00.400

Too many prophets to do many, people need Auntie to profit there. What do you what do you see as? The result of, I mean, in some ways, if you look at it back when you were a

00:34:00.400 - 00:35:16.300

teenager, right? And up through the 60s, when you're talking about drugs, you're primarily talking about marijuana. With just, maybe a little bit of cocaine and a little bit Carolina. Well, you tell them about a data drug. Substitute bin perigord. Okay, whatever you take care of Glory. And take two blue. I got a peasant to blue pills. Put it in there, perigord. Ledger perigord. Let It Burn. And blow it up, blow out the flame and draw them. Shoot. What is Paraguay? Or what's it called? Drag Lord a gorg? Yeah, it's local before. It's a formula for baby. Hmm cramps or something another hmm. You better go get it from the pharmacy getting so popular. Over the counter. Again, get over the counter,

00:35:16.300 - 00:35:51.800

not anymore. But back in those days, you could back in them days. You couldn't get it. We had a yo-yo hordes rips. Did it? Okay. I haven't heard anything. So the pills. Never a good thing. Now, do you think those were as devastating as it's a cocaine hit the streets in the 80s? No. the rock of the worst name of it, that As the worst thing ever hit, hit the world. I'm pretty to just the streets of here. Sure world.

00:35:52.700 - 00:37:19.300

So tell me how what has been the result of that. Like why? Well, how has it been so bad. Like I know that's because a deep question, but one drop is never going to be enough then when she Drew enjoy smoking rocks. A lie, disarray, Ivan George Moran. Three or four hundred dollars a better. And say, for instance, about starter. At noon. Three philologist. Don't not sooner all the money. So, you talking about? And if you look at yourself as one person in the community, you're talking about huge sums of money. Going to the drug dealer. Huge sounds. Area went with my b. Another air is what is every area? Which I go in this 5 6, 10 15, drug dealers. Now who they pain the by inserted itself.

00:37:19.300 - 00:38:11.200

Hmm. In my back. Oh, you by eight balls and in the quarter? So you got a ball by that big my big as a golf ball and you jump up, but you want to serve out of that. You met make 3.3 hundred dollars up that. Hmm. You made by a quarter for an ounce. As two. Eight balls, it's 250. Hmm. How much would the street level dealer? How much would they buy two, get to put themselves in business? Cora Ranch.

00:38:12.900 - 00:38:22.600

How much would that go for Oregon? Mm 6. Mm. I love you know, better pay. How much would you pay for a quarter ounce tube? 5215

00:38:23.500 - 00:38:32.500

you come out with a 100-megaton it. How long would it take you to sell that? I put like this the first of the month.

00:38:32.900 - 00:39:18.400

Hmm. You can fill all that in one day, one day, all in one day. See you talking about at the first of the month, when people share money, they're tagging that check on the first. You talk about their $600 and it seemed as been today been neither day. Now, how much how long is that going to last through the month? Would that be cut by the end of the month? Is that? How much do you think they'd be selling a a day? Somebody's always out in one store shoplifting stealing gas that. Are they going to? Sewn up scraps

00:39:19.200 - 00:39:53.400

junkyards, you got guys clean up, tin cans. I'm son, that aluminum. You got Hustlers, doing all kind of thing to take care of it back. So you're almost talking about when you talk about this crap. You're almost talking about dismantling, the whole Community to sell it. I'm you talking about taking the copper pipes and all that. Less stuff from the from abandoned buildings and in million houses.

00:39:54.100 - 00:40:08.600

And then selling it for rock cocaine is such as grab your, I get the money and then go to bed, rock cocaine with it. And then you also tell me about the temp agencies, how that works. Oh man, you guys drug man, right outside.

00:40:10.500 - 00:40:30.800

Jody again, the temporary service where there's a temporary service. There's a drug dealer on the other side of the street or he's sitting inside. I know. Okay, two registers. Okay Lakeland.

00:40:30.800 - 00:42:28.600

Labor Minute, Man. MailChimp. Soon, as you cash, your check, is that The Rock dealer. He's there. He's in the neighborhood. Hmm. See, this second. I know because I didn't try to race your work there. Come right out there. He's there in two places. The place is no, no, this man's every day. He's not going out to work and be obvious. So, there's a lot of money, not only directly by the cocaine dealer. But even by the temp agencies who are profiting off of these sending these people out, right, so, they can get their cocaine and don't, you know that when they spend their money, Your workout 89 hours away. Thirty-five, forty dollars. Rock causing cheapest Rock will cost you ten down. Nothing on for eight dollars. Five dollars, cheapest, one cost you 10. So you gotta go from 10, maybe 15, 20, 24, 35. That's your whole day. That's your whole day. And you got to come right back to mom. He's going to be right there tomorrow too. He's not gonna give you any credit. He's in business not to make an ass out you but the you to keep going to work to make sure he gets some money. Sure.

00:42:29.200 - 00:43:06.100

So they're all kind of connected there. Because that's the same the dealer out. Front has the same interest of sending you out to work as the person behind the desk. That's right. In the agency. You're going to make sure you go. And if you have to pay, if smoking rock cocaine, is what it's going to take to get you to come to work to make the agency money. That's good enough for them. Huh? Good love it. He'll guide long as you come to work. So then who's buying out?

00:43:06.100 - 00:44:01.100

Okay. Let me ask you this. You see all these abandoned buildings and bulldoze properties who's buying up the, you know, these houses and things back in the neighborhood that people, you know, these devastated communities, who's making the money there. A lot of boredom houses border projects. The biggest nice band. What about this new recent developments you see the is Simone. Central new development housing is in a ghetto. They put that house

00:44:01.100 - 00:44:44.700

up. Over on the old abandoned. Lots. That's pretty Blown Away. Everyone told me that 65. Okay. Now 5920 59th, and 57, and century. A print of new houses between 61st. Yeah, new houses houses that project sounds now, who do, you know, who owns those houses? Whose whose the developers to develop our, they look nice because they stand out like a sore thumb and together

00:44:45.000 - 00:45:05.300

because the fortune to don't, they have to cause a fortune. They are beautiful. So it's a down, the street from the new houses to selling rocks. Mmm-hmm. Oh no, this is a new houses on the front right up the same street as selling rocks.

00:45:09.900 - 00:45:42.800

So, what do you who's going to move in these houses? That's what? Who can afford to move. No, one in the neighborhood. I measure sure people from outside or it hasn't even met. There's no one in it. Who could afford a house like that? Sure. So what are they? Then the drugs gambling. That is all in that neighborhood. Now always has been in any order.

00:45:44.100 - 00:46:12.700

But now, to the same extent, though. Because like you said before you were talking about these pills. Yeah, you see by the 80s you're talking about a whole new game. Aren't she was a hold is this game is awesome mom. The grocery store is selling rocks, Rana ear App Store release selling rocks and the back of them. The guys back there, Sunrise.

00:46:13.700 - 00:47:02.900

So Who? Given given this so-called War on Drugs. How is it that we can have 30 years of a war on drugs? And there's, even more drugs out there than when they even started. There was a man, you exponentially like that. Vietnam War. If I never won, they find a better here than they're going to win this battle against drugs. Let's take a quick pause here. I So, we were just talking about

00:47:05.600 - 00:47:32.000

the impact of the introduction of crack cocaine to the community communities. See ya? The world. That's right. Let me list since since part of what we're talking about now. Is

00:47:33.100 - 00:48:28.900

the life in the shelter. The reality of going to the temp service, getting them cocaine, going back to the shelter. Going back to the temp service, getting the cocaine and creating his vicious cycle? Yeah, let me, let's take but I want to go into that. But first. Let's take a step back and let me ask you. Let me ask you this. You were you were about as well as you could get back in the fifties and sixties, right? I would say I love you were a crook that right. You are Thief. Yes, you didn't like to work, correct? So, if that was the case, these days. You being homeless shelter, right? Right. Tell me,

00:48:30.600 - 00:48:52.200

tell me the reality, though, you and you hung out with people who are just like yourself back, Dan, right? Identical. So. How do these guys get by? How come they, how come they were? First of all, was there a homeless shelter back then? I never knew about a homeless shelter. Never knew never knew a homeless shelter existed and you are you're

00:48:52.700 - 00:50:03.600

never with the guys who would have been in a homeless shelter if there was a homeless shelter, right? That minute, where did they vanish? Was strong, families were strong. They were strong families. Would My mother would go to go to distance with her child. A relative would always be. She'd always have a place to stay. Always had a place getting argument here. Then I go to a haunted house. No problem. As Eleanor son. That's my sister's child means, they always say, There's food in frigerator. There's not enough room. And when these beds, there's a floor. There's a couch, but you're not going to be outdoors. Sure. See you never exist. You didn't know people sleep. There was nothing like that. Nothing like that. Can you knew you will? You are someone who would know if that was the case abdicates?

00:50:05.200 - 00:50:39.800

He would know probably more than most and it hasn't always been shelters. They were sleeping in garages. And garages the Opium, but you better pop the cars that downtown he was going nosegrind asleep. Now, what is this for? Now that wasn't in the 60s. That will you talking about the eighties early 80s? Yeah, so let me Ask if this. What about the hotels that were in the neighborhood to?

00:50:40.600 - 00:51:39.500

They had some of those cheap hotels to write or at some cheap ones, buddy. Crowds town. On 55th that and just go to jail did King on Cedar? You pay $10 what I stay there? Matter of fact. Breath is ten dollars and twenty one dollars a week. Send down the we assemble them how they would send like that. And what would you get for your money? You get a room with a door on it. Would it be? Yeah. Being in there and down the hall. Get bathroom with a shower with a shower to get free. You got Linen on your bed. Yeah. Yeah. Did you hear that? Yeah, they they did have landed

00:51:39.500 - 01:04:45.000

there. So, once a week day, pick up your linen, tell me how, what is it? How much is $10? Because nowadays, you know, people people might say well $10 a week. That's probably wait, man. Kent machine. It calls me now. For Transit room words. Overnight $35, that's that the lancers and night a night. Okay, you call it. What kind of room Transit Transit? Yeah, what's that mean? And maybe go to in you have fun with the lady overnight? Hmm. Pick her up. Take her there. Enjoy yourself. Next morning. Believe the got it, okay. Because you can't really do that in the shelter. Nothing is shouting. All right, I got you. So, um, they had these hotels there. What they're fairly decent, clean kind of over the kind of like the J Hotel. Sounds kind of like the JJ is is a much popular one. Jay is. A week cause you about ninety dollars there. 90 $90 a week, a week and you're basically getting the same thing. Same, I didn't acknowledge the same identical thing down. The hall is your room. It is a their bathroom. Our yeah. The same size room. All right. I've been in there. I know, exactly. I got a lot of room in there. And that's pretty much the only place like that anymore, isn't it? I did detroiter the detroiter. Where's that Detroit? Obviously, 66 250 Troy. Yeah, you got wild over. He said he's Cleveland Pauline East, Cleveland the calls townhouse me. See you as you got out there you get quite a few out there, but not in Cleveland Much Anymore. Clean funny side. Oh, man, you got no point. There's your welfare building. How much is that? 05 and 935? Yes, sir. That's why I went there. About two years ago. She died last night, 50 a whole day's work. Yeah. For one night. Yeah. Yeah. How long would it take cost you semi? They're not that it is 70 70 a night at Northpoint. At Northpoint. That's not, that's not a fancy hotel. I've been in there. Rooms and nice, but language that is not worth having. No, so I back in the day, move on. This will move away from this topic after this, unless you have more to say Back in the day. How long would it take you to earn $11? This is pro week's worth of Lawton. Let's say you're working straight, you know, you know, straight above the board labor. As if I never had a job. All right, I never had a job or alright, be I worked at These brass and steel enough case breath and coughing. I made about I didn't 20 bucks a week down 120 a week. Yeah, so you talking about $10 and you're making 120 week and now is that That was was that basically Boreal away tax was that minimum wage? I got into that. Gotten that job. Or was that we getting paid. Was that a good paying job? Or was that like yeah. Is that you have to make a No, you made it over that the amount of something, then Kota quotas, something. You need more. We do your work fast, Kia 7. I wouldn't bother to do that. Okay. See, you're just making enough to keep your job as. Uh, maybe not even that much. Yep. I quit that job. All right. So, where you suppose would you have considered yourself? Let's say, You weren't a crook. Would you consider yourself lucky to have that job? Or was this just like, any run-of-the-mill job. You could get anywhere anytime. It was a decent job. A decent have to do some ground. There were worse. Jobs out there. Oh, yes. Now, what was the worst? What was the like, where's your bottom? Bottom of the tier jobs there and I was watching it. How much would it dishwasher make a week about 40 bucks, 40 bucks. So, that be paying about 1/4 of their Weezer needs to stay in this hotel. But now how much is the dishwasher going to make? You might make it and sell it for a week and after taxes. And yes, but I understand it back and if they're staying in a Jay how much? Oh, man, you got big as almost 400 and much. You gotta pay the standard Jo dear and one room. So you're talking about nearly 100 Social Security. When you making 175 400 a month, you making well over well over 50%. Year income is going for bottom-of-the-line housing. And do you know what a eat at that? Eat at the where Bishop Cosgrove the homeless side and go to melek a church and eek. Okay, and they go to you, go st. Pat's any within the West Side circle to the eating free food centers. They can't afford to buy food. Then didn't have nowhere to cook your food. We did it bad. There's nowhere in jail till you can cook. Only child. Okay. So let me ask you, let me go into this other line of questioning before we get again to the homeless shelters what happened to the family networks because you had no tells for the guys who didn't have the family networks, right? Back in the day. But a lot of the guys had the family networks and the places on the floor, the extra bed. They come to sleep on what Happened to that. Families died out. How did that happen? Like Prince's mine? My aunts. They got sick. Let them died. Sure, but put it even even for the younger guys. I mean, You see a lot of young guys, his family's gonna die that, that news that I wanted, and they say, didn't burn all their Bridges, but they did something to deserve what they got. But let me ask you this, I say that, right? But you burned a lot of bridges. It are granted. You did not. And I agreed to that. No, you did not steal from your family and you treated your family, right? But you burned a. I mean Born an angel angel. It is. A lot of these guys in the shelter who have talked to, who are younger, who wouldn't steal from their family. They just aren't Angels. Either necessarily, this got tired of putting up with him. You think? Actually I'm doing for you. Think it makes a difference that I mean, if you look at the city of Cleveland, there's not as much first of all, I mean a lot of that housing has just been cleared out. So a lot of the people, the families who are still probably still, there are just kind of clinging on to what they got and they maybe don't have that extra capacity to deal with the people who were like yourself who. Yeah, we're kind of a little bit of a burden but that for was a burden, you can handle, but now it's no longer. Because right? You don't pay your way. You can't stay because it's everybody's I think we everybody's right. Okay, just put an extra pressure all across the board. Yeah, even for the people who are trying to be straight. They can no longer necessarily hold together. The families. Like they used to be able to get a stamp on your own. You can't with everybody. Got to let go. Toast is. So, you're talking about a real vicious phenomenon. Has happened in the last 30 years. Oh, yes, when I met this really destroy communities, destroy families, create a huge sums of money for certain individual, certain small groups of people. Yeah. And led just the devastation for other people, huh? So how the homeless shelters fit in this? Michelle is. Is a business home is has got to be. A real business now. Now, how did that come to be you you were saying back in the early 80s people used to sleep on the cardboard? Yeah. They didn't have the shelters back then with no shelter. They got to shove it together. They made a plan. Please be when I always ran by the Salvation. I sure he's be project heat. Cornerstone connections, huh? What do you think of that place? Oh, that was rude. Run. He was divided up. They're definitely had a site. Decides Seaside for men. They went age groups. and they went into, he was mentally unbalanced. You're in a group as site likes ID. That was for. 50 and older, or if you had a mental handicap or physical handicap, you were in their sight, A is for young or per Rudy robbery. Individuals. Are we stay now? Stay inside. E? Little more mellow. Now, here with metal. I've seen some weird. Oh, man. This isn't help me. Guys, fighting guys be up all night. Walking around. It's Sydney - walls and corners. Mind you the penitentiary do the penitentiary? I'd be so tired of going in now that part about it because you got those real prisons. When I went to Ohio, penitentiary, the transferring to honor camp, but they call Donna Camp. I don't want to go no more. Now, the London prison farm. Working the fields out there. I didn't know anything about a far as bar riding city of Cleveland. Got that prison far. A shovel. Horse manure. Cow

01:04:45.000 - 01:05:15.300

manure. Cut down trees, cut corn, dug up tree stumps. Cut grass, or sickle. No new wood cutting grass with with a sickle. All I knew was alive more, but you could hold your belt and get out of there, sickle and cut grass. You. Were,

01:05:16.100 - 01:41:48.400

you be so tired when you come in for lunch? Can you go take a shower? You be at filthy nasty? Have you eaten lunch to go back out to work? And you stayed there about 4:00 and come back into another shower? By dinnertime, I was so tired. I wouldn't go to dinner, sometime Dirk tie. So in some ways perhaps that that is the difference. That's prison through the made the difference of me. And now the shelter you talking about guys, too convenient. We'll listen to this for a second. You've got guys who are sleeping at the shelter. Going waking up at 5:30 in the morning. Yep. Heading over to Merit a look right down Sinclair getting sent out to, let's say, Atlas plating or I know where it is. Let's say that. What do you think? No more. You come home, how you feel after you come back out of the House of Payne dog-tired? That reminds me of that. Penitentiary you, so tired, eight hours of that. And then you go back to the shelter. And then they don't even have his comfortable bed. I bet. Or you don't match? Then but Matthew was laying on the shelter's. The first shelter. I was in it wouldn't know Matt. That Victor is. The methane is a quarter almost, where was that in the welfare bill. It used to be up front on pain side and 92 met. That thin thing is about a half an inch. That's that was it. They put you on a map. How many men in a row? How close would you be? Oh man, you'd be what elbow devil. Hello to have them jump up smelling because there's no showers wouldn't show. What about the bathroom? There was even a bathroom. In 92, that's why I got my partner. There's a 92 attitude, I put in for CMHA high-rise and before that you were in the shelter. Yeah, Cole had a brother does. It was out of the weather? Now we when you first started being homeless. Yeah, the shelter was already in existence and just But before you are homeless, you new guys who are staying out on the street. I didn't know nothing about it. You just saw the mirror and know anything. I know anything about a shelter, but you knew the guys. Yeah, I mean you said earlier, you saw guys sleep on a mass. That's just from from people. You've met who told you that? Yeah, okay. The new and bready. I got accustomed to it now. Who ran the shelter over? I do. The welfare building. City. The county that was the same one cornerstone connections. Yeah, and then they move they got their different places and they moved you out. They moved your friend away up a brilliant. When I'm superior down the basement. Okay. Yeah, that's where the people who had mental illness. Yes stayed. Right, but it originally everyone stayed there now, originally not to everyone with but then more shelters. The home is in group so much. How many guys would stay in the shelter when you were first started? There's a line of it. The way of have been. You come in the Sinai? 92. There is smoke a nice we smoking in. Hmm. But I went too much on that Panhandle. Fucking dad with pain Island. Go on and get his shoplifting different stores. And where did you were Services? They say the temporary service. They had those. The ones you first learn of the temp service. I've learned image started going out that never was too keen on that because in take me long to figure out. Now. I got a problem. I'm homeless. Now. I got another problem. I like to smoke rocks. As soon as I get paid to do a worked hard for tourist areas, there's a projects right across the street two blocks away. Instead of around two blocks away, Doughboy start coming to to the temporary, please. Safety. The extra 20 twice, the pay real customer service. No cashed. A check is the bar next to the Degreaser. We cash it at. Hmm. He's in the bar. I do is go in the bathroom. He'll be in the bathroom is serve you. That's right. I know what I'd do. - kill messing on trans load is down. I have stopped working to Perez services. Then do not find another way to get some money though. Hmm, But I mean, I thought we were going to wear services so it wasn't killing some ways you do with your addiction by working less. That way I try and you yes. There was the best way to work to try and at least to try and yeah, decreases. So you didn't smoke yourself to death. Yeah. Now. Leave me a stuff that there's some family members of my founded in the city, but they won stopped, and I got some pure three. Other cousins is missing. Ready. Girl, ladies. But I'll come in contact when I don't have no dealings with him smoking. But yeah. Yeah, so you so what happened with the shelters after? You move that to your CMHA apartment. You eventually lost that I lost that because Failure to pay rent. Failure to pay rent. That was on welfare, then that lucky got the apartment. Extremely looking J. I mean, everything was In my favorite, helping me out. The across the hall at dad and his son comes to move her furniture. Right across the hall, you recognize I'll have anything in my apartment. He said can use this can use that. I look at her house full of furniture and a color TV, a wow, our utilities. I wanted to Forks, nice cleats. Couch to sleep. On this side, turn into a bed. Porch furniture. And, you know, I move his stuff in that day that night to color TV was sold. Looking for the furniture to go to porch furniture. Oh, man. So you did 18 months, State 18. My time, I switch the array. I was on welfare. My room is $30 a month or $30 2001. That was. Would you work work? And we're nowhere. Sure, I didn't work nowhere. How much was it? To monthly say that they're about $115? That was for six months, six months on and six months old. I was mad at you. Okay, and I was getting food stamps. I never bought a piece of food with them stamps. I get two stamps or cells downstairs. So you lost your place. Came back downtown? Yeah. Where did you? Where were you? Then? I come back down the road that same place when they changed. You been downtown since then. Yeah, since 92 base. Yeah, it's been a doozy. Is always been down. Seen a lot of craziness, a lot of scene. If that's your dad is sick. Fights. Seen any people, die, some guys, dad, but I went in the vicinity, but I knew him it says just Dad. Oh, yeah, one God that are or the most bar used to be in the shelter bill. I call him Billy good tall. Black guy. Yeah. Held a couple, get a hell of a drinking problem. The movement shelter to A cross. B to most bar up over the bar. Mmm. Yeah, it says the grass to hasn't drinks. Dry yourself to death. Is no rocks and he did, he didn't needed didn't smoke right now. Moves bars. One of the few old time institutions, right? I mean, yeah. Goodbye. There's not many like most bar by the hell of a bar. That's like the little that's this. That's like back in the old days with the bars. Used to be like, whatever and You can get drunk there and it went dead. See the once the Greyhound bus station come round. There did get them a drink so we could, you know talk talk crazy to him down there, get homeless and stuff, beat him out of $10 $20 in there. They may want a girl flowers over, you make a rage between getting dim a girl and he might want to rock. He pay you to go get me wrong. You go to the project, but you don't come back, you know, all that was involved. We had boys just basically hustling to keep this all that's but it was a bomb. Keep your game together. So what are you did in the bar? Try to cut down the homeless from coming in there. I think coffee was 50. Seneca, the dollar club now. No refill. He just wanted you all out, that didn't make no difference. Dad. Stop paying a dollar for the coffee would be colder. Winter time. You have a shelter at 5:30 or 6 and 30 years. Ladies. Cosgrove until 7:00 7:30, so, you know I'm being in the cold so you go to move money, paid a dollar. So open 24/7. Nah, it'll be about some o'clock in the morning. I mean about six. I think that's see that dude 6:00 in the morning. He K. He didn't, he didn't like that. But who else is going to come in at 5:30 or 6:00 in the morning besides the homeless, right? But but it's changed upstairs. All drunks sure all his tens of drunks. So they're just like less than a half a step away from being homeless themselves. I did I did I do is Miss paying rent. He would put it put you out. Join, the home is over the head. Yeah. Yeah, well. Another friend of mine once said, The only person worse than the landlord was the bar owners that they put you out, just like that. You ran out of your you were not even more Rich. Yeah, his daddy. That was daddy's business get to his son. Son. Not as populated at all times at all times. Lynn. This is a dive to this is not a massive dive. You gotta widgets in there. Oh, waitresses. Yeah, that is lunch. Nobody happened. You don't have no breakfast. That going to get a ball equal quarter cup of boiling eggs. Liquor. Now is Tenzin so old they've been in some been a years. Mmm. They paid $200. 200 a month. What kind of run over a room? I've been around. Got a bed. You got a little dressing, that's it. Kind of liked a man smaller down all of the bathroom. Get a few homeless guy. No, don't most guys than over there as on social security. So on a compact disability, so they only last leg. And all they do is drink. And it is, you get a bill with you. Check coming right there. Hmm. He's in charge of everything. Crazy, but it's maybe one step above being in a shelter. That's all. It is. Not a step as half as tough as an inch. Yeah. All right, so tell me about this. In the last 10 years, 92 for 94 6 years. How's that whole area, right? Down there changed like in terms of the area, where Cosgrove is the area, where Moses, you know, they're all just area where they call it the ukulele Dinner Bell. What they did was change their I seen welfare was booming one time right? There would be no problem getting on welfare. You have a holy hell getting on welfare now. You get on welfare. They want you to do community service, 20 hours a week. You want welfare. Now. Are you on SSI? This is that 20 hours a week? As you do that, the Cosgrove, or you do it over as st. Augustine st. Pat's. But that's where the guys, that's why the guys working the kitchen, keep their check that keep it just for their stamps. That's all you get that night. They say no pain. Now, coming to college. Madam get, they don't, you know. Okay. Let me ask you, if your abs. Bad as all that Boyd's that they wrap. Yeah. Owns the stores. You mean those little drug stores and stuff like that? Supermarkets. What supermarkets over there over there over by the welfare? Bill. It go down on Mondays. Nowadays. I'm Dave now you mess around. Go down to. Okay, growing 40th. No, but I've got 59. I've got old Whitley. Either one in the Red Zone, 55 or the one down 60 30. Black Goes West Side. Sure. Now, tell me this. How long is Bishop Kyle? Bishop Cosgrove been open? Since you been there. Years ago for years and something like that. What about healthcare for the homeless? That's been there about that room. And then the Then there's a new shelter for the mentally ill over right behind. Brick behind the Costco Center. Oh, yeah, I went Edge before that one. You aren't our deep. That was psy.d transfer it to okay from the brill building to their sure and they put applications yet. But application in one of the social workers at a see fit that you were not his own record as you mentally imbalanced. Some kind of way. You got a memory problem. Physically handicapped sure. You just want crazy enough. But yes, that was it. I asked nicely now for Jeanette going over there. I see, they did you want to go for the nomina? It didn't matter. Shelters are should have been explained to you know, the way I feel about it. Hmm. A shelter no matter. It's going to be a sheltered. I was going to be any time we get to be in a certain time or about somebody's rules. See basically talking about. A whole different level of surveillance being in a shelter. Yeah. It's why any kind of way? To get out. Like they was cracked and bomb, it makes it more difficult. It does make it difficult, you know. And they know this. But they're going to try and put a program within the shelter to get you out, crackle. Nothing. No program. Don't get you out for a cocaine. I'll get you off any drug of your choice. That's got to be your decision. The way you started yet to stop. But I'm glad they say, you have to sink. So low. That you don't want to just stop. So, do you think? Do you think there's any way, actually change things for the better that shelter? Yeah. The shelter or or anything. I mean I'm talking about. How would you like to live your life? Realistically. You're back to normal. there's also, I have my own place. Be responsible, you know. I was I'd like to style it, it ain't but one room. And go from there. Now, what do you think if you had? Your own place, you got out of shelter. You had your one room? What would, what would that mean? Like and what would, you know, let's say you you come in and come, you can go and come as you want. Keep your belongings. Have them secure. You have friends over women friends over. I've had I had one room before since then is it weird for cars? Grow up front and Miller Health Board part. I was like I would transport a client's different places. There you be bus tickets transfer. I took a client over to Westside your room. Emergency Taylor or to one of those, go to the hospital. For treatment where they got to go there for. No, it's good enough. I'll reach worker. They knew I was homeless and they knew I had a drug problem at hand. They try to stay out of work. This time me. As part time. I started six in the morning by noon. I was on. But the kids were, as I had to pay you once once a month. Fifteen. Well fed, and I was getting food stamps and shape the chick which I made there would be about 4 70. But my, which was is good. All that did enabled me to get more drugs, so I get paid on the 15th three days. I wouldn't show up. Is it what happened for it? They know what happened, but I didn't want me to lie. I don't feel too great. That's sick. That would show up in a sheltered and know where they'd go along with it. That was pretty good as a woodworker in under the city. Never nobody much. So they're going to try and tell me how to save my money. And they did a going to be a pea and allows it out to me to read, hold his stop. This, I tell you what, give me all the money. I just quit in German. You can't quit. No Jonathan. Every job. I had I quit. Krita got fired. So you quit your job. Yeah. Okay. Let me ask you two last questions, or maybe yeah. Start off with two last questions and How given? That you for a long time at some level, had a desire to either cut down or stop your addiction to cocaine. How do you think you could pull your life together to the point where you get your own room? Your one room? You managed to pay the rent and you can pull yourself together and move on from there without any backup in this vicious cycle. Myself. Be determined. That I have enough of enough is enough. I've been it. I gotta move on, you know, another way to move on. To that one room with a department of whatever success. Maybe for me is the lid that cocaine go. I have enough sense in the event that has to be first. I don't know when that's going to be there. So what we help you? What would help you? To keep. That cocaine, you know, keep you from wanting to go back. To that cocaine. If you are, let's say get your, you know, your modest, one-room place. But, you know. Nearly all every corner. There's a dealer, you can't necessarily get away from that Donna, but you by yourself in your warm room place. What's going to keep you from slipping? I mean, there's because that that that you for your that that Sensation that you get from that rock, what's going to replace that? We should be common sense comes, as do you think, do you think? It would help you. To have your own place, right? You could come and go. But you were living in the close proximity to people who are of like mind to yourself, who are trying to deal with the same problems and trying to work with each other, to keep people off drugs or do you think that wouldn't help? Individual. Enough's enough. Tide. but I didn't ask for it, but if you can I'll ask for it. Let me know. Referred me to go. There are problems. Rosary hall now offers group meetings to discuss treatment options at rosary Hall Rosary in take office. To West Tuesday, Thursday. 10 a.m. Monday through Friday from 8:30 to four pm intake is available. Emergency department homegoing, instructions. The following instructions, which have been checked or written are recommended as guidelines for you to follow and stop alcohol, drugs, return as needed. Muscular skeletal chest pain, substance abuse. St. Vincent, Charity Hospital. So, you think participating this program? I helped them. So you think if you had your own place or participating in a program? You think that's in some ways, what it takes one, the program and to the Dignity of having your own place. Yeah. Get away from all the craziness. All right, so that's what the key is to kind of end the craziness. Okay. Last question. Little bit off base. Well, let me just say this because this part probably won't be on this last question. Probably won't be on the radio. But let me say this before, we ask the last question. So thank you to mr. Fred Whitlow for speaking to all of us on W Ru W 91.1 we certainly will be hoping for the best and I think we all need to come together to try and put into some of the craziness. All around that, his hit the city of Cleveland and the world. To help put an end to this madness. So we can start rebuilding since dignity since it community. And once again, start living as human beings. About covers it. Thanks. Okay, last question now for the radio. Do you think the quality of crack cocaine has changed over the years since you first started? Tell me how so is. That is poignant. It takes more of it and get you, get your Hind. And that is program. And why do you think that changed covered? The other day, cutting the cheaper quicker. Stretching it, you know. Hmm find more ways to make a profit. Yeah. I'm surprised similar spice. Stop. Wake up, hit the lease. Three 450 450. I got a note where I can sit down a minute. Sure that I know what the quality of it. 3450 a320s. Oh, yeah. It for No, do you think the people do you think the market the actual structure of the cocaine market? And by that? I mean, the people who are selling it and the people who they're buying from the people who are making the money has changed over the years. Yeah. If I got trying to get caught, man. A lot of drugs and come out. And come right back to the same identical thing. Because it's fast, honey. As in the man like, you know, it's is it going to go? That's probably a whole nother, long conversation, huh? You better believe it. So why don't we stop for today? And what are some of the time if you want?