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Can you hear me? Alright, I just turned- Adjusted my volume. I can hear you perfectly. Thank you. So just to begin, today is December 8th, 2021. We're conducting this interview on Theirstory with John Fisher and can you confirm that I have your mission to record this interview? You just faded out. Are we good now?

00:00:25.500 - 00:00:37.500

There we go. And can you just confirm that I have your permission to record this interview? Yes. Perfect. Thank you. So, to get us started, could you just tell me a little bit about your background and where you grew up?

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I grew up Louisville, Kentucky. My parents had a hobby shop here in retail business. And I went to high school and went to Wagner graduated from there but we all worked at the family business. So something we work for being a little kid. And then I got married when I was twenty I think. And it was right before I went into service. And my wife had just graduated from high school, by the way, that was my first wife because I have lost two of them to sickness. And right now I have a girlfriend I've been with for quite a few years, but I had gone down to the Air Force to check in at the Air Force because I was on deferment because I was the only child and we had a family business and because I went down and checked the deferment I got my draft notice. So then I decided I would go on enlist and so I took the army. Do you remember when you first heard about the war in Vietnam? Actually in high school because, a lot of my classmates before me already gone in and gone over there. So I heard about Vietnam. probably '64, '65 and that's pretty early. What were your impressions as to what the war was about at that time?

00:02:33.800 - 00:03:48.400

I guess I didn't keep up with the news and my impressions of the war was that we were doing the right thing. But I think views on that changed over the years and even when I was in. And so when I enlisted in the Army, I volunteered to go to Vietnam, but I felt like it was the right thing at the time and so I just kind of went from there. So before you actually became involved in the service, did you have any ideas about what it might be like once you got there? No, I didn't. I didn't have any idea. I know my brother- my brother-in-law had served in the Navy and he was already out and they had gone on like a Vietnam Cruise, of course, they were offshore and stuff. And- and I really didn't have much of an idea what it was like, so. And then you said you voluntarily entered the service, but did you have any- what was your understanding of people- of the draft? How did you feel about the draft at that time?

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As far as the draft, we've been having selected service for so long. It was just kind of normal. You're gonna have to sign up. Anyway, I mean the selected service had been in gear for years and you know, they drafted other wars and stuff like that. And so I just went on and signed up for the selective service and didn't have a lot of thought. And I actually, you know, I was pretty naive about the whole thing. Let's be real honest about it. Can you talk a little bit about what exactly you did in the military? In the military when I first got there, I was working on my MOS [Military Occupation Speciality] was a signal, radio communication, long distance. But it was full when I got there so I got push- put in the supply and I was stationed- I was stationed in Long Bien at a supply company, and it was just like being in the states and I'm kind of a- well, let's put it this way, all of us were kind of a rebel at times and so they had- they had asked for people to go out to smaller places and so I volunteered to go out to smaller places and I did supply and it was a like a class one point where you hand out food for all- all the GI's and stuff. But later on, I went to- I went to different places. I went to Tay Ninh, its T-A-Y N-I-N-H I think it's spelled and I did supply there, but also did other things there and working grave registrations at one of my MOS. But you make friends over there and there was one guy in grave registrations and he would get busy at night some nights and so we go down and help. So I learned how to do all the tagging and everything else, which is pretty different. And then later on, I came down on levi and I went to the ninth division. And I went down to the Delta to do my MOS and by the time I got down there, my hair was a little bit longer. and my fatigues were a little bit tighter because they were tapered and they took one look at me and says, "well, we've got a place we can send you so you'll be out of the way." So I went to a real small place and just three of us there. And that's where I finished out my time. And then I came home in Nixon's first pull out. It just 30 days, really didn't make a difference to me, I was here that long what's another 30 days. Okay. I'll be quiet (laughter). And before you came home, did you have any notions about what the reception you might receive would be?

00:07:21.700 - 00:09:40.800

I thought when I first left there would be reception, but after- my sister kept up with the news, I didn't write as much as I should, and my wife kept up with the news, and my mother. And so I start to get the idea that the reception was not going to be so good. And I also got the idea more as I served over there that you know, we weren't winning hearts and minds and we weren't doing all these things we were supposed to and I got very disappointed, and so- But you know, I'll talk to other people that came over and they say you know, "when we get home people aren't going to like you." And when I did come home, we had- Nixon brought the Ninth division home, like four or five hundred or something and so we had this march in Seattle and somebody from the Pentagon came to speak, don't ask me who because I don't know. they said, "now you all have to keep your be quiet and keep your place because they're going to be protesters" which there was. And so we were just coming home and probably a lot of us just disillusioned, just as much as the protesters, but you know, they're behind us, carrying signs saying baby killers and all this other stuff and- and, you know, it got kind of hard so. My reception, I came home and I flew in Louisville and met my wife, the airport, and that was it. Do you think that people's dislike of the use of the draft in the Vietnam War may have contributed to their general dislike of the conflict there? One more time? So, do you think that the dislike people had towards the draft contributed to their general dislike of the war?

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Yeah. I think it did. I think it had to be because it brought it more to public and everything else and I think it had a big contribution to that. So did you personally, besides from that march, have any other interactions with protesters or anything like that? After I got out of service I had a little more interaction and I actually participated one or two and not big ones, just something here local, you know, wasn't real big and because I was real disillusioned about the service and the Army and what our government did and you know, I'm real disillusioned that they kept us over there, knowing that this war was unwinnable. They should have brought some a long long, long long before that. So, do you feel like your time in the service was misunderstood by the American public?

00:10:51.700 - 00:12:51.100

No- well, yes because I don't think the American public knew what was going on until much later. And I don't know if you watched the Ken Burns tapes. So, you know, a lot of it was a lot of it was political and- and people didn't know. And, you know, the news media covered it good but sometimes the news media was as much a problem to us as it was to anything because they would cause problems and make it worse, than it was sometimes. So, moving into sort of what you just mentioned with the news media, how the Vietnam War was sort of becoming remembered in American culture. Do you remember what it was like when movies about the Vietnam War first started being made? I saw Platoon and it was a good movie. I think it's one of the better movies they've made about Vietnam and I saw Hamburger Hill and there's scenes in the first of Hamburger Hill that portrays how the Americans got along with Vietnamese girls and stuff like this and- and I think that was abuse on the Americans part and also on the Commander's because they should have had more reign on that because I don't think that was right. And- and I think that's where a lot of your- towards Asian women come now because- because of what went on in the Vietnam War. And I just got off track so you might have to get me back on (laughter). No, that was great. So what made you want to watch these movies?

00:12:52.200 - 00:16:53.800

Well, I've never- I've never- the VA (Veterans Affairs) has never been much of a help and, you know, you want to forget but you don't want to forget, you got- you got- you want to remember that people died and people you might have known died and friends died and I don't know. It's kind of to reconnect and it's not to see the blood and guts but it's to remember that you were there and you were part of it and at some point in time- some point in time it's forgotten. Hold on, I got to let the dogs out. Okay I'm back i'm Sara. So what aspects of movies- What do you think is accurately portrayed about what it was like to serve in Vietnam? Full Metal jJacket's pretty good and it portrays- I think in Full Metal jackets you see where the- you see the man on the ground because you have to remember with the use of helicopters in World War Two the average man saw- saw combat every ten days. But if you were a grunt the ground and with the helicopters, there's a good chance that most the grunts that were on the ground doing the actual fighting saw as much as two hundred forty days in their tour fighting. or at least two hundred So, you know, in a year's time, they saw more than some people saw in four years of World War Two. And- but other than that I think it was well written to the section where they just- the news media was walking by and they were just talking, the GI was approaching the Vietnamese girls- approaching the GI's because there was a lot of that. As a matter of fact, one time I was going from one unit transferring to another and I caught a ride on a convoy and we three trucks stopped in the village to pick up another convoy to be there in an hour they think. And so they got kind of different so I had to get up on top of the- the load that was on the back and guard it. Well, it just like in the movies, you know? Girl- the kid comes up and one has this girl. These boys came up and had her sister. I mean, it was their main- but you know a lot of that went on and and it was never stopped. A nineteen year old with a gun, is the worst thing you can have in the world. So- but okay. So do you think there were any aspects that were really inaccurate to the experience that movies have sort of glorified?

00:16:55.500 - 00:19:21.000

Yeah, they kind of over- they kind of over portray, you know, the shooting and stuff and it gets a little bit of- I don't want to say gets a little bit noise- more noisy than it is. And I think one of the best, actually the best movie was made the Australian people made it, and it was about the- I'd have to look it up. But but it was about to Australian unit that was over in Vietnam and how they got ambushed and stuff. And I think it portrays- I think actually, I think that portrays it better than most movies do. But, you know, the just average person over there, you know, you didn't think about that. I mean, you reacted to the what went on because you're worried about going home. Because the minute you got there you have three hundred and sixty five days and every day that you know, exactly how many days you had to go. And you don't start to worry about it. If you made it past six months, you didn't worry about it until you got down to about two or three months. Then you got scared, really scared, so. Do you think that in general, the creation of the Vietnam War film genre has been beneficial in creating a positive image for those who served? I think it has in a way but there's not really a whole lot of amount, you know, it's not like World War Two movies are all over the place, you know, Cary Grant and all these other ones and you know- you know, there's a lot of romance and everything else and and most of the Vietnam movies there's not a there's not a lot of romance of seeing mom off the train and and saying goodbye and stuff. They usually start there and get right in the combat. And I think that's a little hard for the American public to take, because that's how it was. It was, you know, so. What elements of the Vietnam War experience do you think appear most frequently in popular culture

00:19:21.800 - 00:22:19.100

In popular culture? I think it gets back to video games. Because, you know video games are action. Well, we've had Vietnam, we've had Iraq and we've had everything else so, you know we're a nation of reaction to violence all the time. And I think that's what you see in everyday society, you know, World War Two you know, you had the, you know, it was the grand, the great Americans, you know whatever they call them and war to end all wars and- but the rest of them got to be so political and, you know, I think you see it in video games because that's what we have now that's really connected to because, you know, you can take a lot of your vets and stuff, you know, the video games are a big thing and and you see that society all the time because we have made this violence into our society. Yeah, that's a really great answer. Do you think there's any elements of the Vietnam War experience that are never really addressed? Are never really addressed? Yeah, I think there's a lot of them. I think what's not addressed is the is the effect the war has on you. You know, Vietnam is different than than all the rest of them. In Vietnam, we went over, I went today and George went tomorrow and Andrew went in two weeks and I might not know them and then we came home separately. Where now they send them over in the unit's together because when I came home, if I wanted to talk about this or I wanted to share my memories or to get something off my chest I can't find anybody I served with. I mean you see these reunions groups, if you get on like all the ones on Facebook and stuff you see them going to reunions and stuff. But you don't see a lot of them because most of us- and trying to find out where you served is is a pain in the ass to to the government, so. Why do you think that the Vietnam War has become such a popular topic in American culture?

00:22:21.300 - 00:24:15.800

Well, I think it's the way we came home and then all of a sudden now, you know, it's welcome home and you know, there's been places in- across United States where they've had big gatherings at military bases and other ones where they get a lot of veterans together and they, you know, welcome them home because they weren't welcomed when they came home before like the troops coming back from Iraq, you know, that everybody meets them at the plane or family and everything else. And- and I think the vets have pushed that to the point to where it's at, that's why you see so much of that, that that's why you see so much in culture because they want to get identified. They want to know who it is. I even have a sign on my back and truck. It says Vietnam and the year I served over there and I do handiwork for people. I'm seventy-four almost seventy-five, i'm in great shape so far. And the other day, I was at Home Depot and was a nice day and the window was down and a guy left me a note and said, "thank you for your service." I think it's because we didn't get recognized. We've pushed for it so much that you see it in all the media now. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'll be right back. Had to let dogs in. No problem at all. So transitioning into the memorialization of the war in the last couple of decades, what were your feelings when you first heard that they were planning to make a Memorial in Washington, DC?

00:24:17.400 - 00:26:10.900

I thought it was a nice thing because, you know, it was something everybody wanted to shove under the rug. Because the policies made a blunder, the Johnson Administration, the Nixon Administration, all of them, and- and McNamara, and all of them along the way. And I think we needed a place to go to say this is our spot and somebody cares, you know, we just felt like nobody cares, you know, well when we were over there after a while, the Vietnamese used to call us, over overpaid, oversexed, and over there. And you know you get home and nobody cared if you went there or not. In fact, I could hardly find a job because I told them I was in Vietnam veteran when I came back, so. Before the official design was announced for the memorial and DC. Did you have any ideas that you wanted the memorial to incorporate? No, not really. I just thought, you know, we needed something. I mean, we've done this for our Civil War, even though that's that's been in the news a lot. But, you know, and I think how they did it was nice. We just listed the names. I mean, you know, and I think of everything from Civil War something- just list the names, not anything else just the names. And I'm glad they did it. I've been there twice, I think. Why do you think the listing of the names was an effective form of memorialization?

00:26:13.300 - 00:27:27.100

Well, you're not forgotten. And, you know, a lot of them are just forgotten. I'm on one site on Facebook and I don't know who's posting it but a guys posts somebody's picture every day, you know, somebody to let you know was killed or something. There's about two, three sites. So that we don't forget, you know, because they just get forgotten. Do you remember hearing anything in the news about the person who is chosen to design the memorial? Yeah, I thought that was interesting. Uh, you know, it was, you know- it was, she was- I thought it was great that she did it. I thought- I thought that was wonderful. You know, that, you know, somebody came up with something. That was it was- to me it was kind of anti-political the way she did it. You know, I think I like- I like that. I like the way she did it. Do, you remember anything specific that you heard about her at the time?

00:27:28.100 - 00:28:46.770

No, not really. I've heard more about her probably in the past ten years than I have any other cause she's been on the news a couple of times and I read up on her. But, you know, I'm glad it was her that did it though. So you liked the memorial, but it does obviously have a little bit of controversy with some people who've gone to visit. Why do you think that some people don't necessarily like its design? Well, I think they're looking for more of a monument or something and I think the way it is it's to remember. And some people don't like it because there's not room for the people are dying of Agent Orange. I served in a lot of places there was, but I wasn't necessarily on the front lines all the time. So there that, you know, there's a there- I've seen some people say, what about the people that are dying of Agent Orange, shouldn't they be on the memorial to? So I think there's some controversy there, but I think the way it is is its solemn, it's quiet, and it's not political. Yeah, that's the way I look at it. Could you tell me a little bit about the first time that you saw the memorial?

00:28:54.400 - 00:30:38.100

I cried and I looked up a couple- couple of friends from high school that I went with that died over there and a couple of other people I served with. And funny thing is, you serve with people but you just learned their first name and you forget their last name. I don't know. You're just you're not going over together and coming home together. So, it's not like it's somebody you know, and so you have a tendency to forget. You just learn their first names and very few of them I could ever remember their last names. Today I couldn't tell you but about two of them. So. Have you seen any other memorials around the US? Yeah, we have one at our high school. We have eight people from my high school died in Vietnam. We have a- there were twins, Billy and Bobby Feaster and one of the went to school with me and one of them got killed over there. And there was a guy that- I graduate in '66, he graduated '64 and his brother graduated with me, but his brother made it, but Kirk didn't make it and the worst part about Kirk is that when I used to help fill in at grave registrations, you know, you take whatever ID has and matches the person. Well, that happened to be the one that I matched to person. So, I still dream about him just laying there.

00:30:41.600 - 00:31:41.100

Do you think that Vietnam War monuments, have been able to portray the meaning of the war to veterans, in a genuine way? I don't think it's the meaning of the war, most of them are just to memorialize the men a little bit because I don't think we'd ever have the monuments we have at some of the high schools, and some of the town's before, because there's- the Korean War you see very few monuments compared to Vietnam to that. I think it was brushed under the rug so much that's why you see so many monuments across the country, and towns, and high schools. There's a lot of high schools that have a lot. Why do you think that it's important that the Vietnam War be commemorated? So, we see our mistakes and we made a lot of them.

00:31:45.400 - 00:32:42.550

Do you think that time has changed how veterans view their own experience? Yeah, I think so. We look back on it now and we really realize the times, we realize the political situation, which we didn't before, you know, my sister is five years older than me, and she couldn't wait to vote for Lyndon B. Johnson. Me, I didn't want him in office because I figure, he's going to send me to Vietnam. And- and so you know, and she didn't know anything about that. So, you know, it's just- just how you look at it. But, you know, we look at the times and we see what I see what I don't want to happen again. Do you think that internet access has changed the way people learn about the Vietnam War? Do I what?

00:32:42.800 - 00:34:53.900

Do you think that internet, like the internet and how easily accessible it is, has changed the way people learn about the Vietnam War. Yeah, because now they- now they can go access these pictures these guys put on and everything else and they can see what other people write write about- about things on there and you're getting a lot of them. They're putting their opinions on there and they're not afraid to write it down anymore. And before, you know, you didn't have a place to voice what you wanted to say. And I realize that Facebook isn't the best place but, you know, it is a way to communicate, you know, there's one that's Vietnam photo club or Vietnam- whats the other one- and, you know, you can connect with people, you can say what you want to as long as you don't get political and so it's kind of nice but, you know, you do get a different viewpoint of how you view it and you're not afraid to view it now or say anything about it. How would you like people in today's society to remember those who have served in the Vietnam War? I wish they'd remember the ones that were lost because, you know, a lot of- half of them were drafted and a lot of them volunteered and the gold star mothers and families out there. To remember them, like- they were remember like they think about a World War Two veteran. Because a lot of them served and thought they were doing the right thing and- and like when I when I thought I was doing the right thing. I had my doubts about it later on and a lot of them thought they were doing the right thing all along and they lost their lives doing it. And I think that's important. People should remember the, like that. You know, they gave, they gave it all, you know, I gave a little and they gave it all.

00:34:55.800 - 00:35:26.580

Do you participate in any sort of activities to try and help educate people about the Vietnam War? No, not really. Actually, I'm afraid- I stay away from that. I think that's too much of a realization for me. Do you think that it's possible to create a sort of national memory of the Vietnam War? I don't know how they would do that (laughter).

00:35:31.000 - 00:37:13.650

Yeah, fair enough. Hey, that's a big question, Sara (laughter). It is but I thought I'd see what you had to say, but that's completely understandable (laughter). What sort of methods do you think younger generations can take to better understand the Vietnam War. I think to better understand it, that there comes a time, the good, bad, or otherwise that we take sides as a nation or as a person to do what's right or do what we feel is right t the moment. It's not always the right thing, but young people should remember that these people thought they were doing the right thing, and- they should remember that you know, in their lives that they need to take more of a participation. I have an eighteen year old granddaughter staying with us, which is different after having no kids. And she is- she is very much keeping up with her politics and I think that's very important for young people, because when something like this comes up, then they can remember what happened before and they can make the right decision and- and they can look back on this and say, you know, I'm sorry we lost all those lives but it wasn't quite the right thing to do then.

00:37:17.000 - 00:40:22.100

So as we sort of start to come to a close, how would you want your own experience to be remembered by the public? By the public, I feel that they should remember that this is something I wanted to do. Good, bad, or otherwise, where there are consequences that go with me as far as that goes. But I felt at that time, it was the right thing to do and that there's- you have to make decisions your life. And after you make those decisions, you have to remember, you have to live with them the rest of your life and you have to be able to live with what decision you do make. So that's what I'd like to remember. Yeah, that's a really great answer and then so that's sort of wraps it up for us. But are there any questions that you wish I would have asked you about? No, I can't think of any other questions. I do think that Vietnam as a whole, something- there wasn't the news media now. If something happens in an hour from now, we know about it. But the news media then and the transparency of the government, if there'd been more transparency and more things up front I don't think that we would have ever had this. I believe we would have lost lives maybe twenty, thirty forty thousand or thirty thousand, by the time they did it, but I don't believe we were lost fifty-eight thousand because now people can- they can decide and it when the Vietnam came around with the lack of transparency that there was in the government and the way things were hidden by a news media because there were things they asked not to publish and they did them. That a lot of people got hurt unnecessarily. So, I like the openness of the news right now. I think sometimes they get a little one-sided but that's what- that's the way life is (laughter). But- but transparency is something that I think without the transparency we're going to lose our democracy and if we're not careful, we're going to lose it anyway at the rate things are going.

00:40:23.700 - 00:41:03.500

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point to sort of to close on. It's a really nice reflection that you just made. Yeah, but I just want to thank you again for taking the time out of your schedule to meet with me today to speak about this. It's been really, really helpful and it's going to be a really great addition to creating a better understanding of the Vietnam War in American culture. Well, it took me a while when I got your first email to even think about if I want to do this or not, so that's why I took me so long to answer (laughter). Yeah, absolutely. I completely understand that it can- it's a very difficult topic, but I really appreciate you taking the time today. Alrighty. Thank you very much, Sara. Nice meeting you. Yeah.