00:00:00.200 - 00:01:34.600

That's one of the reasons we've been able to build a strong community is because our lives intersected maybe more closely. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me. I am really curious then, as we kind of again shift more towards like concluding statements of this conversation, in what ways do the reverberations of the HIV/AIDS era continue to be felt in your life today? And that can be at Bet Mish or elsewhere. You know, it's been a long time since I went to a funeral of someone who died of AIDS. Thank God. So, it seems much more in the past. It's a long time ago now when that was really going on. The... I would say that the main carry-over for me in my social life is maybe a little bit how people in Europe felt in the 1920s after World War I when they said a whole generation was lost and I still have a lingering sense of there was a big part of a generation that was lost and some of the brightest and most talented people, sadly. So I think that sort of lingers a little bit but it's not immediate anymore. It's a long time ago.

00:01:34.900 - 00:03:04.310

Yeah, and are there any other ways in which you would say that era impacts you still? Is it something you think about much or not? I would say less and less as time goes on. It did, you know, in the midst of it all, I think we all felt very vulnerable and people also felt the fragility of life, and the fact that you know, something could happen any minute, and you have no control over it. Or very little control over it and it would change everything in your life so you really kind of had to focus on, okay, what do you really want to try to do? And I think COVID has brought some of that back again. It's revived some of those feelings that you could get sick. And now I'm at the age where, you know, I get a phone call every now and then from a friend who says "I have prostate cancer". Yesterday, a friend called and said, you know, I have stomach cancer and I'm going to have to have chemo. My oldest niece who is 53 is undergoing chemo for breast cancer right now, so, that sort of brings up again those feelings from the AIDS crisis. I could imagine.

00:03:05.000 - 00:04:41.000

COVID and the fact that people my own age are getting sick again. It's like I've been here before and it's no fun. Wow. Yeah. It's such an interesting perspective. Yeah, something I've been talking about with people who I've conducted interviews with this past year is connections they've drawn between the pandemic and, the COVID-19 pandemic that we are still living in currently, and the AIDS epidemic. And I'm curious then if there are any connections you've drawn or maybe also any noticeable differences, too. Um, well, I think the sense of being at risk is similar and the ways in... but for COVID, you know, where so much of society shut down and everybody is wearing masks, and you have to show your vaccination card. But I think one of the big differences is that because of the last 10 or 15 years of medical research, they were able to develop a vaccine so fast, there's still no AIDS vaccine and the idea that, oh, you know, I can go get two shots or now three shots, and, and be 95% protected, and if I take other precautions, it's pretty unlikely that I'm going to get sick. So having that is a wonderful thing. But we did not have that in the AIDS crisis.

00:04:41.400 - 00:06:04.620

And I mean, I came out in the early to mid-1970s — drugs, sex, and rock and roll — it Yeah, I can imagine as you noted that like sex being synonymous with death, like that's internalized. And that's, I think it must be really hard to get over that. — Yeah, I think it's, it was, I think it definitely changed people's lives. — Yeah. I'm curious then since we've talked a lot about how Bet Mish has, or, proved to be a really great community and support for you during the AIDS epidemic. How has it been a support for you during the COVID-19 pandemic? —

00:06:05.700 - 00:07:01.500

Well, I think when we stopped having services in person and only had them on Zoom for a year and a half, people really miss seeing each other. And we would occasionally get together one on one with people. But, you know, that sort of walking into the room on Friday night and seeing 35 or 40 people you've known for a long time and saying, oh, hi, how are you kind of thing, that, people really miss that. up — And starting in September for Shabbat and also for our high holidays this year, we've had these hybrid services, which are in-person and anybody who walks into the JCC has to show your vaccination card and be masked the whole time you're there. Including service leaders and let me tell you, it is not easy to lead a service with a mask on. up My professors have been having a lot of issues with lecturing. I can imagine how that would start to feel suffocating slightly. up Both lecturing and trying to lead singing with the mask on. up

00:07:01.500 - 00:07:57.650

Oh, yeah. up It's really, you know, you go to breath-in and the mass goes (mimics mask concaving), you know, it's awful. So we're back again for high holiday services and Shabbat services with this hybrid model and a lot of people, the majority of the people are still staying home. Some people are venturing out, but I think there was a real sense of missing each other. Even the people you were maybe not so fond of you still miss seeing them. up I know what you mean. Yeah. What does caregiving look like then nowadays? up Well, you know, with, in the AIDS crisis, or with friends who have cancer or whatever, you know, you can especially now in the internet you can set up you know next Tuesday I'm bringing dinner — I did that for one of my cousin's, kind of things, you know.

00:07:57.650 - 00:08:35.000

But with COVID when people were in the hospital and you couldn't go into the hospital and see them. You couldn't go into the nursing home, you know, you could wave at them from the outside. They looked, they looked out the window. People were so cut off and not just people who had COVID. But one of my cousins in Philidelphia, her husband who was a doctor, he went into the hospital and had surgery. She dropped him off at the front door and he died 11 days later, and she was not able to see him. The whole time. They would not let her in the building. So... That's horrible. That was really awful.

00:08:35.700 - 00:09:29.400

That's really horrible. So, in that sense, I think it's been worse than it was before. At least before we could go see people, we could, you know it wasn't fun, but you could at least see them. Yeah. Are there any things that Bet Mish people have been doing for one another during this time to kind of lift spirits or stay connected even while maintaining physical distance? Yeah, I think people have been, you know people who are willing to eat outdoors, people have been going and you know eating out with people now that we can eat in. And as — I don't know if you noticed — but up and down 17th Street, all the restaurants have built street eateries and they're all packed all the time. It is mobbed out there. Ordinary neighborhood places you can't get in at lunch without a reservation. It's crazy.

00:09:31.200 - 00:10:17.100

So, but I think people are just desperate to get out and see other people. So people have tried to do that during the AIDS crisis. I think people have made an attempt to, to call people and be in touch a little bit more. Since we're not automatically seeing them at services as we might have done otherwise. Nice. Well, thank you so much for everything you've shared within this hour or so. I'm curious if there are any questions you think I should have asked or any final words you might want to get off your chest before we turn off the recording button. No, I can't, I can't think of anything else. It's been a very enjoyable conversation. So I thank you very much. Yes. Thank you, too.