00:00:01.800 - 00:01:05.800

Okay, so today's date is October 6, 2020. The time is 10:11am. Eastern time. The location is virtual via TheirStory. The interviewer is Rosie Cain, and the interviewee is Liz. And Liz, Do I have your permission to record this interview today? Yes. Awesome. Thank you. So to start off, will you tell me just a little bit about yourself? Um, Sure, well, my name is Liz. I guess identify both as non-binary and as fat as, as you know, you already know. And yeah, I'm in my 20s and graduated University a few years ago. And, yeah, currently just living in a flat in a city. And I'm working as a tutor. So that's sort of a brief, brief description, I'd say.

00:01:05.800 - 00:02:44.100

And can you tell me just like a little bit about where you were raised or kind of your family just a little bit? Yeah. So I'm not good at, like a vague. Tell me about yourself. I tend to be too short, but right. Yeah. So I guess, um, I have a brother and a sister. They're technically half brother and sister. But it's always just been like brother and sister for me. They're quite a lot older. And I have what at the moment, I just have a mom cause my dad died a while ago. Yeah, that's, that's the brief description. My family. My brother and my sister both have kids, like multiple kids because they're older. Which is weird, because I've been on since I was nine. Yeah, I guess I guess that'd be brief description. Any other questions on that? No, that's perfect. Okay. And so you, just to reiterate, so how do you identify in terms of gender? Yeah, I'd say non-binary. And so like they/them - fairly recently, like, I guess, I've always, like, sort of felt some uncomfortableness in my assigned gender. Like I was assigned female at birth. But never really, like was aware of non-binary people until I went to uni, and then even then, never looked into it until maybe the past year, like properly as a thing I could be, if that makes sense.

00:02:44.100 - 00:04:55.500

Yeah, and were there any specific events or experiences that kind of influenced how you came to identify as non-binary? I mean, yeah, so I guess, again, since uni and leaving uni have just gotten quite into, I watch a lot of TV and films and stuff. But I've also started watching more YouTube, like, YouTube creators who and a lot of a few of them anyway, significant amount of them have ended up either coming out of non-binary or had already been non binary and explaining it so sort of through that through watching their videos, that were not about gender, and then finding out that they were non binary, and, you know, weren't necessarily 100% androgynous. You know, that maybe the Google Image result you get for non-binary they would, you know, could present or look a lot of certain ways, but still could be non-binary, that was sort of an eye opener for me. I think, if that makes sense. That's sort of how I started thinking about it in terms of myself. Yeah. And, and for you, like, what does being non-binary mean for you? Um, I guess a tricky question. I guess just is, obviously not fully identifying as a woman in my case, but like, still not. Like, I've had many points in my life where I thought, oh, it'll be easier to be a man or in this specific way, it will be better this specific way, but not ever wanting to sort of, say I was or how [skip due to technology issue] pronouns or anything like that. So that has always been a definite, I don't think I want that. However, this was still this uncomfortableness with the women and the grouping of it, I suppose. So learning that as the place where I don't have to go fully to either. Um, I think that's what why I like using it.

00:04:55.500 - 00:07:47.100

Yeah, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. Um, can you kind of speak to I guess like what the experience of this uncomfortableness with your assigned gender was? Or kind of how you came to recognize that? Yeah, well, yeah, I suppose looking back down, I can see it for like, a long time. Um, so far as just, it was more felt like a wrongness when I suppose I was young, like being like a disappointment in my in my assigned gender, like not liking wearing makeup and not knowing how to dress feminine and not not enjoying it when when I do it, you see, right or just feeling uncomfortable in that. And often as I got older, just even feeling uncomfortable in very feminine spaces. Like, I started to think I just maybe had a lot of internalized misogyny and that was bad. So again, I sort of blaming myself, but in a more in a more academic way. But actually, there is a way to recognize that I do obviously still have some internalized misogyny, but also, maybe I just also don't fit in the group. And that's okay. But like, just gender wise, rather than just being wrong, if that makes sense. Yeah, no, absolutely makes sense. And can you kind of tell me about your experience coming out or sharing your identity with others? I know when we were, when we were starting to talk, you had mentioned that you're not out to everybody in your life. But are you out to anybody? Yeah, yeah, close friends. Um, no family but close friend. It is. I mean, also, it's obviously quite scary. I mean, it shouldn't necessarily have to be, but for me, because also just I guess, talking about it makes it more real. So the first time I talked to anyone about it, made it like, feel like a big step. But I'm quite lucky that my best friend? Well, he's just always been - He's queer - and he's just always been very accepting of sort of, I guess, any, any queerness at all, obviously. So he's not gonna think I knew he wouldn't think it was weird. If that makes sense in any way, you'd already know about it. Maybe have more like resources than I do even. So I was quite lucky in that way. And, yeah, I guess it's only been maybe four or five people. Like I said, just close friends who I already knew wouldn't be like, I don't know, be weird about it.

00:07:47.100 - 00:09:39.500

Yeah. And what is having that kind of scene or community? What does that mean for you? Um, I mean, I guess, - How do I explain it. So I don't really feel like I have much of a, I guess, LGBTQ, or queer community, I basically just have the one friend. And then the other people who are also my close friends and close friends with him, I just, I guess nice, is the short way I'd put it. So I just, I basically lived with them at uni. So it was all a bit random that I found I met them, it wasn't by joining a social space or anything. And I think I just really appreciate having close friends who I've always been able to be honest with, I guess, and be fully myself, because I wouldn't say I have that with my family. So or the friends I had at school before uni. So yeah, I guess it was just lucky. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and did your friends reactions, when you told them did that have any kind of influence on how you might move forward in discussing your gender identity with anyone else? Um, it definitely made me feel more comfortable about it. Because just, I guess, having that definite acceptance from the people you're closest to definitely makes me feel a bit more confident about it. Like I've started feeling better putting it on forms and stuff, you know, like to who, whoever, like a company or an institution, and I feel comfortable sort of being open with yeah, I guess a larger body of strangers, than I was before.

00:09:39.500 - 00:10:26.500

Yeah, absolutely. And, and so you had kind of mentioned that [you were un]comfortable with kind of the performance aspect of your assigned gender. Do you feel like there's any level of performance in identifying as non-binary? Um, so I was sort of slightly cut up. But did you say do I feel that there's any performance expectations with being non-binary? Was that the question? Oh, I think if you're trying to talk now, I can't hear you. Okay. Okay. Can you hear me now? I mean, oh, it's back. Yeah, I can hear you!

00:10:26.500 - 00:13:01.900

Okay. Yeah, I was just saying that you had kind of mentioned like, you weren't super comfortable in the [skip] gender, like wearing makeup or, you know, [skip] and more things like that. But do you feel like there's any sort of expected performance in identifying non-binary? Um, so I definitely, I guess had, like a, like an implicit feeling of that before, I suppose this year, and before identifying as it. Because I, I felt like it wasn't something - I mean, I didn't really think about it that much. But I felt like it wasn't something that I could be because, I mean, partly, I know we're gonna go into it later. But partly because I'm fat. And that means that I, like have, I guess what you think more of like a womanly bit, I suppose was, like, always felt like if I was skinny, it'd be a lot easier to sort of dress androgynously and do my hair shorter and not feel weird about it? I don't know. But, but like I said, since I guess, the past few months, or a year or so, and have just seen people who were visible, and who were non-binary and presented as what you don't really think, I guess, like a cis person would look like, like the debate on hyper feminine or hyper masculine, but you wouldn't like clock them as non-binary. That helped a lot. I kind of realized that it doesn't have to just be anything to do with the outside. So that helped. On my screen, it says that you're having on this participant, so that could be me. It says having issues with bandwidth. I don't know. Is it my Wi-Fi? I don't know if you can hear me. If you can hear me, I'm just gonna check my Wi-Fi on my phone. Oh, I think yeah, I think I think your back and I don't know if it was my, my internet, but it's it came up with this participant is having issues with their bandwidth.

00:13:01.900 - 00:14:13.300

Okay, yeah, it's kind of cutting in and out, but for the most part, I can still hear you. Okay. Well, how much of my response did you get? I got it. I got it. All I heard okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that actually is a perfect segue. So how would you identify yourself in relation to your body? Um, I feel I guess the most comfortable just saying that as a term that I'm fat. Like, ever since I got the comfortableness with the term it's helped a lot. Because anything else feels like avoiding it. Like if I were to say like, plus size or bigger or something. It just makes it feel a bit like avoidance. I know that there are times to specifically orient yourself within that like small, mid fat and super fat, infinite fat. But I actually actually, like tried to find before this tried to find out like whereabouts I fit, but it just stresses me out looking at like, what size counts as what. So I just gave up. So yeah, short answer. Just fat.

00:14:13.300 - 00:17:03.600

Yeah, no worries. Um, and have you always identified this way? Um, no. So I've definitely always been fatter than my peers, um, but could fit into sort of high-street sizes up until, I guess, the end of uni. So it's only been moving out and gaining more weight that I've not, sort of not been able to shop in high-street shops. Not completely, like, felt like I fit into like an airplane seat or a tube seat. So at that point, when it became less of a oh I look a bit different than my friends and it became a sort of structural I'm having difficulties fitting into society. That's when I sort of had to find, I guess a community like online, just people to follow and small stuff to read, because otherwise I was going to feel quite sad, because I've had an eating disorder in the past. So I knew that losing weight wasn't a healthy option. And that being fat was okay, I knew that from before. And so I just wanted to yeah, get more resources, if that makes sense? Well, no, it absolutely makes sense. I actually have also had an eating disorder. So I also understand, like that kind of aspect that can play into it. So I definitely get that. And so how, so you kind of mentioned that you, you use the term fat and anything else kind of feels like avoidance? Um, have you always felt this way with the term? Oh, definitely not always, like, unless and until I was specifically seeking or, like seeking any resources on say, like, any social stuff, like feminism or intersectionality, anti-racist stuff. So so until I actually was looking into that, um, I would have definitely just been fatphobic. I mean, like, which was when I was coming out of the eating disorder, when I was I found sort of feminist resources that were about how it's okay to not be really thin, basically. And at that point, realizing, oh, wow, there seems to be a problem with hating fat people. But before that point, you know, even starting a diet and having an eating disorder was from fat phobia, which I'd learned. So I guess if I had to put an age on it about 18 was when I started using the term but more often.

00:17:03.600 - 00:17:42.100

Yeah. And and are you comfortable [audio drops] Sorry, it caught a little bit that I had, are you comfortable with? And now it says a bandwidth issue again, let me test my internet again. It sounds a bit of an echo, but otherwise I can [audio drops] Okay, I think I heard that. So what was the question? Sorry, are you comfortable with?

00:17:42.100 - 00:19:56.600

With being [audio drops] With being fat, that is a bit more complicated. For me, I, I definitely want to be fully comfortable with it. And I can sort of, like there's no judgement whenever I'm looking at other people. But when it comes to myself, it's very hard. Like, because then it's just wrapped up in other things of like, disliking myself, outside of just my body or like, stuff like that. I mean, everyone deals with it, it's a lot harder to do for yourself. So in theory, I'm fine calling myself fat I'm, I feel a lot better when I have, you know, like, online groups to ask questions about clothes and like, spaces and stuff. So I don't feel completely ostracized. But when I was talking about my close friends earlier, they're all straight size, like, to a large degree, like, they were always smaller than me even when I wasn't identifying as fat so, so it's a bit hard when my immediate surrounding isn't necessarily super fat positive. If that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. Um, and how would you describe your experience living as fat? Ah, I mean, it's obviously a bit - a bit different now in the in the pandemic, because I just don't go out. But it's, it's a weird one. I I've never really liked attention in general, and I find being fat you get more. So I don't like it. But not, not inherently, I don't like it because I'm fat, but just because of the attention that that brings. Because I don't like attention. But day to day in my own home. I feel pretty much fine about it. Like it doesn't really affect me. I feel quite neutral, I suppose. When I'm on my own.

00:19:56.600 - 00:22:29.600

Yeah, absolutely. And have you ever had any reactions from other people when you use the term fat to describe yourself? Yeah, definitely. Um, so I've just started using it more and more outside of sort of accepting spaces, like recently in the past few months. And even just when I was deciding to use it on a day to day basis, even with my partner, like, there was some like, no, not a, and he didn't even say anything. Like, no, you're not fat or anything like that, but just a bit of like, awkward laughter or just, it was a bit awkward. And I had to, like, just talk about how I want to start using that as a word to describe myself completely neutrally. And it's been obviously fighting since then. But But even people aren't close to who, you know, like, oh, generally accepting and kind. It's a bit of a shock. I think, like, it makes things a little bit awkward. Almost like I pointed out something I shouldn't have. It's definitely the case for like, most people who aren't fat. Yeah, absolutely. And how have how has that experience impacted you? Ah, I don't - I don't know. I don't really like it. Like I like I'd like to feel more comfortable talking about it with people because, um, you know, even close friends when I tried to start talking about it before. And I say like, you know, it's it's rubbish. I can't I can't fit properly into like a tube seat. It just hurts. Or even like, if we're at a restaurant, I'm like, this chair hurts because I'm fat. Can we just - Can I can I vent that and have some sympathy? They just look awkward or shocked. And they just say Oh, really? Oh, no. No. I once heard someone say, Oh, but you don't look that fat. Like, are you sure you don't fit in the tube seat? You don't see it? It just seems a lot of like reassurance I guess that I'm not fat, which I don't want. And yeah, I mean, it leads on to the whole thing of like, even within very accepting, like socially progressive spaces. fatness still seems to be something that isn't as known about we'll discuss, and I find that even with people I'm close with.

00:22:29.600 - 00:23:30.400

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there's kind of a [audio skip] between sometimes using fat as an identifier, how other people are reacting to it. Because I think for so long, like, fat has been a stigmatized word. So now, to try and use it neutrally or claim it can sometimes be a disconnect. I found in my experience. Yeah, I'd agree. Yeah. Yeah, and that actually plays perfect into our next set of questions. And so [what social media plat]forms are you active on? When you say active, do you mean just use or like, have an actual presence? Or either? Just generally, is that what you said?

00:23:30.400 - 00:25:37.100

Yes, yeah. Okay. Um, yeah. So, I mean, I only really use Facebook as a place where I have like, pictures of me and I'm actually friends with, with, like, my real life friends. And I just, I like following people on Twitter. So I like to read stuff I don't like to post. And I used to have Instagram, when I was in uni for a little bit, but it's, it stressed me out and not even for any sort of body related reason. But just because it was so visual, that it felt like I don't know, it felt a lot more like, like I got, I could get a bit more like obsessive with presenting an image on it. Whereas Facebook seems to be more like a, I mean, it's quite an old platform now. So it's just a place to you know, store photos of when you saw your friends and use Facebook groups and messenger, that kind of thing. I'm not super active, I guess would be the sum. Yeah. Um, and, so on Twitter, specifically, do you follow other people who identify as non-binary or fat or both? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, I first started just following the people who I followed on YouTube and like I said, a few of them are non-binary and then I don't I don't know if you know, Sofie Hagen, but she's a comedian in the UK who is non-binary and fat. And she's definitely one of the figures who like, I guess, bought her book her stuff, her content helped me a lot. Because she, like I said, wrote a book. And she she tweets a lot about being fat, and to a lesser degree being non-binary, but both are there. And then from her, she recommended other fat people to follow, and I've been following them basically. So yes, is the answer.

00:25:37.100 - 00:27:58.600

And how has following these people impacted you? Um, I mean, I really just like to see other people's experiences, I think, especially with being non-binary, because I'm still sort of working - or not working that out, but like, trying to find more validation in it. So reading about other people's experiences, and if there's any similarity, it helps to hear about, and then the fatness one. Actually, I think the biggest thing I've got from following other people who like, like, call themselves fat, and a lot of them post information. So like, actual sort of, like, the history of fatphobia, or like, medical statistics, and stuff like that. And that, even that itself feels quite like empowering to have the information and to have it in an easier way than having to look online myself, because then you get a lot of - a lot of negative articles. So yeah, because I guess that they post, they do post about being fat, but I don't really need validation in that. Like, I already know, I'm fat. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Um, and has social media at all influenced how you identify either as non-binary or as fat? Ah, yeah, I mean, definitely, I guess. Yeah, it again, sort of, it would probably go a little bit further than just social media, but like, um, a lot of the resources that, like, I've used to sort of explore it have been found through social media. Or, yeah, like, I mean, some of them have been found on a podcast, or like I said, on YouTube. But then that leads to following these people on Twitter. And then that leads to finding others or even on Facebook, I'm in a few groups that are like fat positive, and that leads to other resources, because people just post you know, a recommendation to a book or, or someone to follow, or an article, or something. So yeah, definitely.

00:27:58.600 - 00:29:24.900

Yeah. And, and being in these kinds of online communities, um, how has that - I mean, like you said, it's validated, kind of, or maybe not validated, but giving you resources and information. Um, is there any other kind of influence? Or what's been your experience of being in these online communities? Um, what specifically the, like, sort of fat or non-binary ones? Both or either. Okay, um, to be honest, I was quite surprised to find the Facebook groups. It's just nice to have like, a place which is like, I guess, you know, online social, like, it's not, it's not social social, but like, it's just nice, because people post just, I had this really bad experience at work where, like, they're talking about food all the time. And then you'll get loads of people replying, like, oh yeah, that happens to me. And then I'm like, oh, yeah when I worked in an office, everyone was just judgy about people's food. And it just it feels - Yeah, very, very nice to just hear people talk about something that you've actually gone through yourself. And yeah, I guess it's just nice, because it feels like I could, I could post like, whatever and they'd get it compared to like I said, even my close friends because they're not fat. They don't get it, you know?

00:29:24.900 - 00:30:26.500

Yeah and are you aware of the body positivity movement? Yeah. And kind of can you can you give me your thoughts on that a little bit? Yeah, sure. I mean, I suppose I first found out about body body positivity when I was like, coming out of eating disorder and finding like intersectional feminist resources. And for a long while, I was like, relatively positive slash, like, neutral as it being like, oh, yeah, that's a good thing online - it's a good thing there is. But since like in the past year, or so, getting more into fat acceptance and learning the history of it, and being a bit more critical of it, I suppose has been the result. Like, it's obviously still a net good, but it tends to, you know, select smaller sizes and like whiter faces - that kind of thing.

00:30:26.500 - 00:32:55.000

Whereas, whereas fat acceptance was never really about you have to - well yeah, this is the key thing I suppose, fat acceptance is never really about you have to accept us because we are beautiful, it's more just doesn't matter. Like, fat people should be just treated as normal, more of a neutral movement, I suppose then, then the body positive, which can feel a lot like there's still a pressure to have like a pretty image, even if, even if being fat is okay. If that makes sense? Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. Um, and so, in talking about fat acceptance, um, and that kind of as a larger idea, and, and belief? Do you feel that the fat acceptance community accepts non-binary people? Um, I mean, I definitely would give a general yes. I'm not in enough spaces and I wouldn't even say I've read enough to have a well thought out response. But I mean, for me, like, I found a lot of resources through, like I said, a non-binary fat person. So, that already kind of creates a space from where I'm branching out from there, which, which is going to be accepting. I do find that a couple, like, sometimes, not so much in the fat acceptance groups, but I'm in I'm in a group, for example, that it's, it's a group to buy bras, but like, they're really nice bras that I don't know how to explain it. They're like - they're very neutral in their design, and very comfortable. So and they're very popular in the UK, and you often with fat people, because of how comfortable they are. And in there, there's been like some, not transphobia but support of JK Rowling that kind of like - and which led to a little bit of transphobia. Which kind of surprised me, and did feel a bit sort of when we're get getting into, I guess that the femininity of a lot of acceptance spaces, it can turn into like some turfy stuff. I haven't seen it loads, but I can I can see that there possibly there's some sort of link there where that might, might happen, sometimes.

00:32:55.000 - 00:36:24.100

Yeah. And that moves us into our next section, which is kind of like the intersection of being non-binary and fat. And so do you think identifying as non-binary has been influenced by identifying as fat, at all, or vice versa? Um that's interesting. I'm not sure if I could say that being fat sort of influenced - I mean, it influenced it in the way I think I said earlier, where I feel like if I was able to look more bodily androgynous I might have thought about the non-binary label earlier or felt more comfortable with it. Because the - yeah it's just before I looked into it, or saw more people who weren't you know, hundred percent androgynous who were non-binary before that point, I definitely had it in my head that like, oh, like no one would take me seriously if I said I was non-binary because like they couldn't tell I have boobs or like I like I like having long hair because it kind of covers my face and makes me feel a bit more safe because I don't like attention, like I said. So yeah, it more stalled it I suppose. But now you know, seeing so many people who keep some feminine aspects like long hair or dresses but are also, and can be also fat and but you know, that even those two aren't necessarily - you can sort of do what you want and also be non-binary that's helped a lot. And that's why it took a while I think. Yeah. Um, and do either your identity as [audio drops] kind of more prominent in who you are? I know that's tricky. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a bit tricky. I, I guess I - which might just come come down to sort of not really being comfortable in my fatness, like not fully being happy with it like, like, I think I meant, like, I feel more, I feel more neutral towards it. Because of that, potentially, I see that as less intrinsic to me, because, you know, my body itself isn't even - it feels a bit detached from I guess who I am. Like, obviously, I am fat within the society and that's how I interact with the world. But that's more defined by a certain the word I could think of as oppressions, but it makes it sound. I don't know, I guess I don't want to make it sound worse than it is, but but you know, just feeling like the ostracization. Or like the world smaller, too small for me, like the spaces in it, it feels like that is how fat is defined through that. So if you remove the barriers, and the world was fully fat positive, then it wouldn't mean sort of anything to me, it would just be I look a bit a little bit different, like a hair color or eye color.

00:36:24.100 - 00:40:18.900

Whereas non-binary, I mean, that's a similar thing, actually, it's not, like if there was gender abolition, again, it wouldn't matter if I was non-binary, but I feel like that one is less obvious to fix, you know, because people still very much have a gender identity. And it's that one’s obviously not just structural, physical changes that need to be made within the world, it's more like a whole rethinking gender thing. So that one's I would say, is more important to my identity. Because it - It feels like the one that I have to make sense of more, in order to sort of understand myself in the world. Whereas the fat one I already I can, you know, every day see how that's affecting me. Yeah, absolutely. And can you describe kind of a past experience or an average experience shopping for clothing? Do you find that it's kind of more difficult being fat or being non-binary? Or both to kind of find clothes that feel comfortable and expressing who you are? Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely. For both, I mean, I think the the fat one has been more like, obvious to my life in that, that was definitely a point. Or, like, I guess, like a gradual change, where I just was less able to find clothes that fit me in actual shops that I could just go up like to the high-street and go in. And it was just less and less it was harder to find. And then eventually, I remember just one really stressful shopping trip or like nothing for and then recently, I bought some stuff online and that helps a lot. Like, I bought some stuff from a high street shop that had a plus size section online. And that was fine. But finding brands that like specifically cater to, either all sizes and are very explicit about that, like within their marketing or specifically just for like fat people like bigger sizes. That's made me feel a lot better. Because going into a shop and finding nothing that will fit you, especially if you're with someone and they're trying loads of stuff on because they fit, it doesn't feel great. So that one's definitely affected me negatively. And now a bit positively finding the online shops. And non-binary wise, it's, it's just been, I guess, like a lifelong, difficult job of finding clothes that I like, I guess. Because I like wearing - I don't like wearing trousers, I like wearing skirts and dresses specifically because of like the physical comfort. I just for some reason don't like how trousers fit. They just feel bad to me. Like I think I prioritize physical comfort over, over what it looks like. Which means that I put a lot less effort into finding clothes that I like how they look. But I'd like to do that. It's yeah, I guess being fat has impacted it more but the non-binary thing I would like to feel comfortable with what I wear and feel like it represents me and my gender, but me just as a person, if that makes sense. I feel like I'm rambling a lot but -

00:40:18.900 - 00:40:26.300

I can't hear you, if you are talking. I'm not sure why I'll check my internet.