00:00:01.600 - 00:00:55.200

Okay, the date is October 6, 2020. The time is 12:59pm Eastern time. The location is virtual via TheirStory. Interviewer is Rosie Cain. Interviewee is Ly Meloccaro and Ly do I have permission to record this interview today? Yes, you do. Aweome. Thank you. And so to start off, do you mind just telling me a little bit about yourself? Yeah, sure. Um, my name is Ly, I'm 28 years old, I identify as non-binary, I use they/them pronouns. And I have been working in the theater for most of my life at this point. Which [computer alerts time] Excuse me, it's my computer. That's definitely intersected with being both plus-sized and gender non-conforming in many ways. Yeah.

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For sure and my pronouns are she/her. Awesome. Um, and can you tell me a little bit about where you were raised? Yeah, so I was actually raised, my early childhood was spent hopping around the country, my mother had a pretty bad problem with addiction. When I was around five or six years old, I was adopted by her brother, my uncle, who I now refer to as my father and I was raised in Los Angeles. Which was definitely I think, detrimental to my mental image in a lot of ways. Because, you know, LA, is got a very sort of, how do you say, like, um, there's a very particular standard of how you look there. And I was also raised in this neighborhood with like, a lot of sort of thin, white, Northern European descent, people and I, being Italian, didn't look like them at all.

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And do you mind just giving me a little bit more information about your family?. Yeah, sure. Um, so I come from Italian descent. Um, I don't actually know my biological father side of the family almost at all, I only deal with my maternal side of the family. I'm not particularly close to them, because they are [sigh] They're not always on board about queer stuff. I've definitely as an adult, now that I'm, you know, nearing 30 of death, I've been able to repair that relationship a little bit. But it's never gonna be, you know, what it is for some people, most people I would say, and so my chosen family is incredibly important to me, because I don't really have that familiar, like, familial support. I did grow up pretty poor too. And I think that growing up in poverty, and then also being queer has influenced a lot of my life. Yeah. And do you mind just kind of telling me a little bit about your chosen family? Yeah. Um, so I moved to Boston after I dropped out of college in 2011, because I have ADHD. And at a time, at that time, it was undiagnosed. And I was also coming out a pretty, you know, abusive family situation, and there wasn't really [skip] much. So I, I dropped out, I moved to Boston, because I knew a few people there. And that, you know, that's really where I consider my hometown, because that's where I kind of learned how to be who I am, I got all of that sort of reprogramming out of the way, and I became who I really want to be. And so I have my two best friends there, who are both women of color. And I have a really wonderful connection to the queer community in Boston. And I did a lot of drag there. I was involved with the trans community I was involved with, you know, sort of socialists and anarchists, and there's sort of organizations there as well. And I really have roots there. I recently within the last year actually moved to New York City. So I'm kind of struggling to find my place out here. But I do still have like, deep connections to my chosen family in Boston.

00:04:12.800 - 00:06:20.000

So I sort of broadly identify as non-binary, um, I don't, I have gotten into the nitty gritty of before, there was a long period of time where I was identifying as trans-masculine, there was a short period of time, just after when I first came out when I was identifying as a trans man, and I kind of quickly realized that that wasn't who I am. I guess nowadays, I would call myself something closer to agender. But to me, the label doesn't necessarily matter. I just call myself non-binary. Yeah. Um, and kind of what does that mean to you? To me, I think it's really important that people know that non-binary isn't just a third gender that isn't man or woman that gender is not - I hate it with like, oh, gender is a spectrum. It's not a spectrum from man to woman. Gender, to me, is more like a color wheel or even like 3D or 4D, you know, there's so many different ways to have gender. And just because I say I'm agender or non-binary doesn't mean that someone else who use that same label feels the way that I feel they may have a completely different gender experience than I do. And so for me, I think, um, I don't know, I feel really, I do feel connected to my feminine side, I identify as a lesbian. But I also, you know, feel very connected to my masculine side at times. I've never ever felt like a woman like I've always, you know, there's this narrative, oh, all trans people have always known and which is kind of nonsense, because they haven't many people don't realize till later, because of our sort of society really, having, you know, cis-centric, everything. But I have always known since I was a tiny little kid, I thought, well, no one's not a man or a woman, so you know, I must be broken. And so coming to realize I didn't really hear the word non-binary till I was like, 19-20 years old. And so hearing that there was not only a word for it, but that other people experienced, it absolutely blew my mind. And it made everything makes sense all at once. Yeah, um, and so you mentioned that you kind of previously identified as trans-masc. And so how did you come to identify as non-binary?

00:06:20.000 - 00:07:56.300

That's, it's been a journey, and it's something that I'm realizing is probably going to be part of me, you know, figuring that out for the rest of my life. And I think that a lot of, especially non-binary folks have that relationship with their gender, whether it's a continual discovery, and I think that gender can be fluid, and I think it can change. And just because [skip in audio], I was, I feel very strongly, you know, connected to my masculine day. Um, but recently, in recent years, it's been really important for me to sort of claim my femininity simply because I was saying, don't love this phrase, but I think its useful right now. I was socialized as female. And to me, that is incredibly important, because that absolutely informs the way that I go throughout the world. You know, I experience misogyny, I have experienced sexism, I have experienced, you know, things that people who are socialized as female experience. And I think that because that informs the way that I move throughout the world that that is something that has become really important to my identity. Yeah, absolutely. And you also mentioned that you identify as lesbian. Yeah. Like, does your identity with your sexuality have any particular influence over your identity with gender or?

00:07:56.300 - 00:11:51.600

Yeah, oh, yes, it does. Um, so I actually identified as bisexual for a long time in an effort to really separate those two. And only recently did I come to the realization that my attraction to men wasn't actually traction. And even like, a lot of like masked people, I really I what I say is I am attracted to people that consider themselves sapphic. So that doesn't necessarily matter in terms of gender, if you consider yourself sapphic, I am attracted to or can be attracted to you. But for me, it is a really, it's a weird place to live as someone who is very strongly connected to their masculine side as a non-binary person, but also identifies as lesbian. You know, there's, there's several reasons I haven't done medical transition. Specifically, hormones. One is because I am a professional musician, I have three and a half octaves, I am an opera singer. And so that would, you know, change my voice irrevocably. And that's something that I'm kind of deciding what to do about. But I also very much worry that if I were to ever go on T, that I would no longer be welcome in the lesbian community. And that's something that's really important to me i s having that specific community. I also feel like a my, the way that my gender and my sexuality intersect, has made me feel very lonely for a very long time. And I never felt welcome in that community until I read Stone Butch Blues by Leslie Feinberg, which was very specifically about someone who had previously identified as Butch, who then became one on hormones went on T was identifying as a man and then de-transitioned to basically just be non-binary. And hearing that someone else had gone through some of these experiences back in the 60s and 70s blew my mind. I think we as queer people have been robbed, especially, you know, Millennials have been robbed [skip in audio] We lost to AIDS, so many of those people we lost because we did not have adequate health care for queer people at that time. And so we don't really have any elders because they were wiped out. And so I feel like there's this huge legacy of gender non-conforming, you know, history that we just don't know about. And you do a little digging, and suddenly you find out there's this whole plethora of people that have come before you that are just like you. Yeah, absolutely. I'm sorry. You kind of cut out do you mind just mentioning who this person was, again, that you found? Yeah, so Leslie Feinberg was an activist and an author, they wrote Stone Butch Blues excuse me, ze wrote, Stone Butch Blues, which is a fundamental transgender text. And one of the first sort of, it's a novel, but it is based very much on hir own experience. So it's one of sort of like the very fundamental early texts about transition, and be specifically being non-binary, not even just being transgender, or being non-binary and living in t his sort of in between space in, you know, the 70s and 80s. And to doing that, that early work that set us up to where we are for today. And, you know, I really, I consider Leslie Feinberg, one of my personal heroes, because I don't have, you know, a lot of, a lot of people to, to sort of see who's gone before, and I really, you know, appreciate the work that ze has done. Yeah. Um, and, um, can you tell me a little bit about your experience coming out or sharing your identity with others?

00:11:51.600 - 00:15:09.300

Yeah, sure. So I've been out for about eight years now, I came out on June 21, of 2012. Um, I had known for my whole life, as I had mentioned, before, I had had experiences my entire life, experiencing both dysphoria and gender euphoria, when I was like, you know, being mistaken for a boy, a lot of the time, because I was, you know, what my parents considered a tomboy. I came out, and my parents were very, not on board with it. We knew one trans person when I was growing up, and it was my stepmom's friend. And I could only tell you the amount of horrible things that they said about this woman. So, I grew up in a household that while they consider themselves liberal, I had, you know, an uncle who was gay, they did not understand not only did they not understand, you know, trans stuff, they also were afraid of it. So when I came out, it was very much, oh, this is a phase lalalala, Well, we've never seen you act [skips] you've not been watching. And so, you know, my family was not on board. But I was very, very lucky to have a lot of friends, online and elsewhere, that, you know, we're accepting. And that really saved my life. I was probably one of the first ones in my sort of community to come out. And since then, lots of people have come out as trans and non-binary, and I have been the person they came to when they're having their, hey, I think I might be trans sort of, you know, crisis. And, you know, because I was one of the first people to come out in that community, you know, in that, that time in Boston of that age, I find myself having kind of become an elder in that community, which is bizarre to say, at the age of 28. Because there really wasn't anybody. Yeah, And what does being that person for other people mean to you? [Computer dings] I think that it is incredibly special. I think it is a lot of emotional labor, though. I think that you are sort of, at least in my experience, I was sort of seen as you know, the the end all be all of knowing trans stuff, which was not great for my mental health in a lot of ways. But also it was nice to be respected, you know, for my gender, which is not something I got or even get now a lot of places. Um, and it was nice to be able to help people, you know, going through something that I had to go through alone. And I think that if you can offer that to people who are going through this, which is you know, it's really [computer dings] can be very scary. Um, but uh, I think that if you can offer that sort of piece to people and help to people that's you know, it's worth and if the the emotional labor you have to do. And so you kind of mentioned that your family wasn't super on board when you came out and did kind of getting this negative reaction have any influence and how you identified or how you approached coming out to other people moving forward?

00:15:09.300 - 00:18:37.800

Uh, yes, and it did not make me scared. It made me angry and spicy [laughs]. If anything, it made me double down about it. It's like, Well, you know what, you know, if you can't accept me, I will find people that will. And it made me become it did really galvanized me in a lot of ways I have grown a very thick skin, which isn't always great. But um, you know, for me, I, it has been useful and and it makes me have sort of a zero tolerance policy. And like, if you have - you know, there's also a big difference between someone being on educated and being willing to learn and someone being transphobic and bigoted. And so I really do have a zero tolerance policy at this point, I will call you out. And it's been that way for a long time. But it's, it's the older I get, the more I don't have the energy. So you know, it definitely shows you who your friends are. And I think that when you kind of live this kind of life, it - you don't have time to be, you know, entertaining, and placating people who don't want to believe that you should exist. So don't deal with them. Absolutely, don't deal with them. Keep the good people close. That's really what it taught me. Yeah, absolutely. And and have you ever had any, like positive reactions when you have shared your gender identity with others? Yeah, actually, so I had a really wonderful workplace. The last place I worked in Boston was the Community Music Center of Boston. It is a sort of a community run music school for students that wouldn't otherwise have access to music. And I worked there and I was the only trans person that I know of that they knew of that was there, I was incredibly lucky that almost the entirety of the upper management staff were folks of color, specifically black folks who understood what a microaggression was. And so I remember, it wasn't my boss, my boss's boss came to me, I was like, hey, because you're non-binary, we would really like to educate the staff about, you know, some transgender workplace issues. I - we're going to ask you, would you be willing to do this sort of training for them? If not, I absolutely understand we can get someone else because I would hate to be, you know, the only black person in a room of white people having to explain, like, you know, sensitivity issues. And I was like, the fact that they even asked that, the fact that they even realize that was so huge the first time ever, in a workplace that I you know, I pretty much been openly discriminated against in every single workplace, it was the first time I'd ever had a positive experience by gender in the workplace. And I actually did end up giving the presentation, which actually ended up going on to me creating my own business of doing sort of gender, workplace, you know, etiquette presentations for lots of trans people coming out, and they, you know, the company would hire me and I would do this presentation. And it was it has actually been really wonderful. But, um, I, yeah, that was like a really actually, so unexpected and wonderful outcome. Yeah, um, and I, kind of moving into the next question on, do you feel like there is any one area of your life and this is kind of a hard question, but any one area of your life that is particularly influenced by your gender identity?

00:18:37.800 - 00:22:32.700

[Sigh] Um, mean. That's the thing though, is it's, it's all of them. It's it. The thing is, it's so it's, it intersects with literally everything in my life. And it sort of, it's not, it's not something that I really think about as much anymore, because I have been out for eight years. So it's kind of just become normal. But like, I spend 97% of my time, thinking about how my gender affects every facet of my life, whether that's dating and, you know, partnership, whether that's my career, whether that's my friendships, whether that's just going out of my house, you know, it affects literally every single thing in a different way. And I think that the ways in which my gender intersects with the other parts of myself, intersects with the, you know, sort of sections of my life is what makes me who I am. Absolutely, and, and do you feel like there's any level of performance that is expected to identifying as non-binary? Oh, yeah! Oh, yeah! Um, so I have ADHD, which means it can be really difficult for me to process things outside of categories. Um, so it's, it's taken a lot of really conscious deconstruction of the gender binary for me to end up presenting and being who I want to be. But in the beginning, I, you know, I've got I've been identifying as non-binary for about eight years now. But I, you know, for most of that time I was either, I call it going through swings. So I was either in a feminine swing, where I was just presenting fully feminine, or I was in a masculine swing, where I was presenting fully masculine, there was no in between. Um, and I think that both of those things, were the masculine is a little easier, because like, again, I'm not gender transitioned so it's like a little more like conspicuously gender non-conforming. But like being a you know, a person who hasn't medically transitioned and presenting as feminine was a really difficult to have people take me seriously. Um, and I just kind of at that point in my life, I just got used to like, just being misgendered. And I was like, well, this is my life. And then I don't know, I did a lot of either, again, I did a lot of deconstructing, and I was able to reform myself into someone I actually wanted to be and actually wanted to look like and actually liked, you know, being. And since that, I have become a lot more, you know, sort of hard line in the sand about accepting misgendering, accepting transphobia accepting erasure and stuff like that. But I think that even for people that do feel very comfortable identifying as, you know, as much as I hate this term, looking like their assigned gender at birth, I think that it's incredibly difficult. I also think that it is incredibly difficult across the board for non-binary people who are AMAB. I think that people are not accepting of that. And I think that it's incredibly hypocritical. I think that I, you know, in some ways, I am lucky to be, you know, white and androgynous looking. And, but there are other ways, which, you know, it is difficult, especially, like, being a person of size, who doesn't, you know, conform to the sort of the thin white, you know, person with colored hair standard, and I don't pass anymore, but you know, I don't, I can't. So, it's really hard to, to not be deterred. But I think that's a really interesting question. And I think that, um, it manifests, you know, kind of negatively for a lot of different people and a lot of different experiences. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and kind of, before we jump into talking about identifying your body, do mind, you mentioned, that you perform drag in Boston, the mind kind of diving into that experience a little more and telling me about that?

00:22:32.700 - 00:28:35.000

Yeah, Yeah! So I, gosh, so I've been doing theater my entire life. I started training professionally when I was about 11, or 12 years old. Because, you know, my family sort of realized I had a talent for this. And so I was training for musical theater. I trained all the way up through high school professionally, I went to college, I did music there while I was there. And then a big part of you know, when I left up, the reason I didn't go back was like, Well, the only thing I like to do is theater, the only thing I like to do is music. Trans people don't do that. I don't see any trans people doing theater, I don't see any trans people doing music. So I guess I gotta give it up. And that was really difficult for me, because that was so much of my identity. And I had a, so I do have PTSD from, you know, my childhood. And I was in inpatient care at a hospital for a while and about the early must have been early 2017. And when I got out, you know, I thought to myself, I'm like, I need a pick me up, I need something positive in my life. And the best things that are positive are places where I can create, I'm just going to go find some community theater show to be part of. So I did, and I found one, and it was actually a show, like a lot of these, you know, Boston Conservatory kids. A lot of these Berklee School of Music kids, a lot of these Emerson kids, and I got to lead in that show, I would auditioned all of them. And that started to make me think of these kids who were like going on real, you know, equity auditions, these real union auditions. And I was thinking, well, if I can cast them in this, what what's stopping me from having an actual career in theater? Like, you know, maybe there is room for me? Maybe I should make room you know, so I did. And I started, you know, working in musical theater professionally. And and, you know, music and Opera and other stuff as well. And after a few shows, I got an email from this drag group asking me to audition for their disco version of Phantom of the Opera. And I was like, well, first of all, that sounds awesome! And then I was like, but I had to come to this sort of notion of like, I'm like, I have to decide, is being asked to do drag invalidating to my gender. And I thought about it and I was like, not if it's good drag. Because the difference between a lot of the drag we see today, which is this notion of like leaning into gender roles is not what drag is supposed to be. Drag is supposed to be gender nonsense is supposed to be, you know, gender mockery in a lot of ways. And there's that does not have to be gendered, that just has to be weird and experimental. And you know, and so I ended up auditioning, and this is exactly what that company was going for. They, they were not interested in sort of the, you know, the RuPaul's drag race kind of thing. They were interested in just making weird art. And meeting those people changed my life. To the point where, you know, um, I came out here to New York, and I was still thinking, well, I am going to continue to do drag, but I would really, I'm going to, you know, continue to work on my musical theater. I moved to New York to do musical theater. Um, and I went to, I'm not going to, you know, say her name. But I went to a very prominent vocal teacher, who trains a lot of people on Broadway. And she said, to me, it's really a shame because you have the most incredible instrument I have ever heard. But you'll never get cast, because you're fat and trans. And that just shattered me. Because, again, that was my whole identity for my entire life. I've been training my whole life to do this. And I just had one of someone tell me, you're good enough, it's just because of fundamentally what you are that you will never be able to do this. And it took me a really long time to heal from that. And, you know, to decide how I wanted to proceed. And I was like, well, do I continue to do musical theater? And then I thought about it. I'm like, you know what, first of all, I don't like these people. They're, they're all just like, you know, cis, catty theater people, and I'm just not into it. And second of all, the happiest I've ever been is when I'm making weird theater when I'm doing fringe when I'm doing, you know, pantomime when I'm doing drag and stuff like that. So I actually decided to make my, my drag and my fringe theatre, my main focus. And so that is what I'm working on as my career now. And I think that having that experience in Boston, if I hadn't had that drag experience there, I wouldn't know that there's more and so really, it did save my life. Yeah, absolutely. Um, okay, so moving in a bit now to talk about how you identify your body. So how would you identify your body? I am fat. I that is a word that I feel comfortable reclaiming. Um, and it's something that I have struggled with, because - so I've always been, as they say, thick, but when I was young, I was like, thin, but I had like big legs and like a big butt and I had a bust and stuff like that, but as I got older, I became fat. And it terrified me, because my mother had anorexia. And I grew up in an incredibly, incredibly toxic household when it came to body issues. I remember my mother telling me when I was 16 Oh, if I'd married my college boyfriend, you'd be thin. And I was like, I'm 130 pounds, Mom, you know. So that was sort of the foundation for a lifetime of body dysmorphia, and disordered eating. And just struggling with when you're, especially when you're already struggling with like dysphoria and feeling weird in your body. When you add in that extra level of it. It's just like, oh, it makes it intolerable.

00:28:35.000 - 00:32:28.100

Yeah. And so you mentioned that you feel comfortable with reclaiming the term fat Now, have you always felt comfortable with the term fat or? No, no, I so I, I think this actually takes a little bit of explaining of how I how I got here, which is, so again, I was you know, I was never, I was never thin, really, but I was straight size for a good portion of my life. When I was about 22 years old, I was diagnosed with Ulcerative Colitis and Crohn's disease. And that was really scary. It is a chronic illness that I live with for my whole life. I have almost died from it a couple of times. But at that point, in the very beginning, they had me on steroids, a steroid called Prednisone, which I'm sure you've heard of it. Um, it caused me to gain like 70 or 80 pounds at once. And it you know, puffed up my face and it made my joints hurt. It was the worst period of my life. I've never been in more pain than then. And when I finally went off of it, my face deflated and I didn't have that moon face as they say, you know, with the steroids anymore, but I still have the same body. I had gained this weight and it was very difficult for me to lose. And I spent a lot of time you know, trying to exercise it off and a lot of time is trying, you know, trying to only eat healthy foods, and it made my mental health horrible. It was a a little later though, I actually I was about 180 pounds then. And I was still actually fitting into straight size clothing, but I was panicked, I was panicked about it for the like two or three years that it was like that, then I got a birth control implant that actually made it, you know, I gained even more weight. And that's when I got to be up around 200. That is, when I started, you know, realizing that I, you know, I was trying to stuff myself into a size 12. And it was just shattering me. And then I started actually buying plus size clothes, which is, you know, its own struggle. But I was like, wait, I don't have to feel horrible in my body. And that's when I started discovering, you know, the body positive, I will tell you right out now, the body positive movement has done nothing for me! What saved me was the fat liberation movement! And discovering the fat liberation movement changed everything. It was not an easy journey, you know, it was a lot of, I need to start buying clothes that I like that feel comfortable on my bod. I don't need to change my body to fit into clothes, I need to find clothes that fit me. I'm following as many fat lived sort of accounts on Instagram and Twitter and wherever else as I could to be seeing other people that look like me. And even then, it took a lot and I was in therapy for it as well. And even then it took a while there was about a year, where I actually almost never left my house. And when I did it was in like big baggy sweatshirts and stuff like that, you know, the stereotypical stuff. But I was incredibly depressed. And then, at one point, I don't know, I just decided that I was tired of, tired of living my life, you know, or not living my life because I was waiting for, you know, oh, well, when I'm sending, I'll wear this or, oh, when I'm back to what I was I'll do this. But until that, you know, and I think that a big part of it was the intersection of the fact that I didn't wasn't able to present the way that I used to either because I didn't look again, and pass anymore. It was harder to look, you know, conventionally androgynous when you're in a bigger body, especially when you're someone with estrogen, and you are curvy. And it took me a long time, but I can finally say that I am body neutral. And to me, I think that's more valuable than body positivity being like, you know what, there's no such thing as a good body, there's no such thing as a bad body, there is simply a body that allows me to do things in this life that I like to do. So.

00:32:28.100 - 00:33:06.700

Yeah, absolutely. You just gave me so many things that I want to ask multiple questions. But no, I mean, I agree. Just to kind of give you a little information I, I struggled with an eating disorder after being diagnosed with PCOS. So I also understand illness playing into like, what is healthy - Yeah - and just messing up my mental health. And then yeah, finding fat acceptance moreso than body positivity also, for me was phenomenal. But on that note, so you mentioned that body positivity doesn't doesn't help for you. Do you mind - Yeah,

00:33:06.700 - 00:36:16.100

- telling me more about that? Yeah, well, the thing about body positivity is, you, we as a, as those sort of Western society have to stop linking beauty to worthiness. What makes you worthy is the fact that you are here, you know, how how, you know, sexually attractive you are to whoever else has nothing to do with it. And that's the problem. I have a body positivity assertion of, oh, every body is beautiful, like, why do I need to be beautiful? I'm not made for the consumption of other people. And that was incredibly freeing for me was this notion - because even in times when I haven't been able to believe that my body is beautiful, you know - and here's the other thing is the biggest one of the biggest myths is that once you that you'll ever achieve body Nirvana, because it's not true. There are going to be times that even now, you know, feeling pretty good in myself, I still have bad days. I still have days where I'm like, ugh, I hate the way I look. I hate the way clothes look on me. But like, it's an ongoing process. And this notion of, you know, everyone's beautiful, that's hard to get around when you're having a bad body day. But this notion of there is no such thing as a good or a bad body, bodies are neutral, that has saved me. This notion of it doesn't matter what I look like, how big or how small I am, I deserve the same, you know, sort of not only rights, but accessibility as everybody else. I hate going to a movie theater and not being able to fit in a chair like, Huh, and and it's that, you know, it's a lot of that righteous anger that actually helped me because I had been in the trans struggle for so long that it actually it was familiar to me it was this notion of like, Oh, I don't feel bad about myself because I'm bad. I feel bad about myself because I've been made To feel bad, this is an injustice. This isn't my fault. And that actually is a huge part of what turned it around. And even to this day, I don't dislike my body. I don't dislike being plus size. I dislike that I can't do a lot of things because I'm plus size. I just like that. I can't wear a lot of things because I'm plus size, because other people make it that way. It's not about me, it's about society. Yeah, um, I totally agree. And do you mind like, telling me a little bit about why that acceptance? Was the movement that kind of seemed more welcoming? Or? No, I think it's because it's actually run by fat people. I think the thing with body positivity is, you know, it's this notion of, Oh, it's for everyone and this and that, which is great. I think it's true. And that is not to say that straight sized people do not experience body dysmorphia, that they do not eating disorders. Obviously, they do. But there is a difference between that and actual fatphobia, systemic fatphobia, and realizing, you know, that there is a movement that is fighting against the systemic fatphobia of it is, you know, was very important to me.

00:36:16.100 - 00:39:31.700

Um, and so you mentioned that you live with a chronic illness, have you heard those Health At Every Size as a movement? Yes, um, and that's part of, I think that there are some misinterpretations of Health At Every Size, that have actually made it more difficult for fat chronically ill people. Which is this notion of, oh, well, you can be a big person, and you can still be, you know, you could be a person of size and still be healthy, my weight does not dictate my health. But like, guess what, I have two chronic illnesses, I'm never going to be healthy, that's just not in it. For me, health also does not define my worth, you know, it doesn't matter what my even if there's a thing that was if I was thin, I'd obviously be given a lot less heart at the time, about the way that I eat and how inactive I am, etc. You know, because of the fact that I have a gastrointestinal illness, on top of being a person of size has definitely compounded that. And I appreciate the notion of what Health At Every Size is trying to do. But I think that in some ways, when people don't really understand the content other interacting with it can actually be really detrimental to chronically ill people like me. Yeah. And, and on that topic, um, can you kind of describe maybe like, past experiences with healthcare professionals? Have those been maybe more impacted by being fat versus being non-binary or trans? Or how does that play into that? Why don't I tell you about what happened with my top surgery. Um, so I, a few years ago, it was, I think it was 2018, I finally decided that, you know, despite the fact that I was, you know, waiting on T, or maybe not going to do T, I did really want top surgery for multiple reasons. Because, you know, I have a lot of sensory issues as a person with ADHD, and also, you know, dysphoria and this and that I just felt like I would be happier. So I went to I so, in Boston, they have a queer and transgender specific clinic called Fenway Health, so I went to Fenway Health, and they got me all set. They gave me both of my letters from my physician, and from, you know, a therapist. And I did all this research on different doctors in the area and their prices and their results. And I finally found one that I really wanted to go to, his name was Dr. Tobias. And I find you know, I got on the list for a consultation and months, I had to wait months to go to this consultation. Finally, I get in there I'm very nervous. And, you know, he goes through the whole spiel, and he's like, you know, we get the whole thing sorted out great. So all you have to do is lose about 20 pounds, and then you'll be within the safe BMI. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? Apparently, there is a BMI that you have to be within to get top surgery. Because you won't heal right, and I quote, otherwise, because you know, what if I had you know, what if my appendix burst? What if my something happened to my gallbladder, I had to have surgery taken out, would not do it, because I wouldn't heal right? Like, you know, it's ridiculous!

00:39:31.700 - 00:44:11.600

So I was like, you know what, this is nonsense. And this was like, right in the middle of me really struggling with you know, all of this stuff and struggling to to finally be at peace of my body. It was during that year where I like really wasn't leaving the house at all. And so this really was a huge blow to me. So I decided for my health that it would be better to find another doctor instead of trying to lose this way. So I went to another doctor who had a more reasonable BMI, but it was still a BMI that I had to lose weight for, and at this point, I was like, you know what, I'm not going to do this right now. Because right now, I think my mental health and my journey on making peace with my body is, is, you know, more important to this. And I feel like if I go into this notion of I gotta lose X amount of pounds, that is going to be a disaster for me, because I'm gonna fall right back into old patterns gonna fall right back into disordered eating. And I don't need that, right. Like, I'm actually finally getting to a place where like, maybe I'm going to come out the other side of this, I'm not turning around for that. So I actually still to this day, I have a my - I did a whole fundraiser, I have all this money like sitting waiting for whenever I can find a surgeon to operate on me, which I don't know if that will ever happen. At this point, I know reconsidering and thinking, maybe I'll get a breast reduction, because that'll, you know, at least do something. But um, I yeah, it was, it's really horrible that basically, I don't get gender affirming care, because I'm fat. And that was, you know, something that's, it's really, still really a sensitive thing for me to think about. And it's, you know, we need to do better, we really need to like specially like, there's already so little Trans specific health care, we need to do better by our fat people. It's really not fair. Yeah. And that brings me into our next section about the intersection of being non-binary and fat. And so do you think that identifying as non-binary or trans has influenced identifying as fat or vice versa? Oh, yeah, I think that, you know, first of all, you know, we had kind of talked about this notion of like, what people think of as the typical non-binary person, I think that being fat definitely does not fit into that, I think that, you know, being in this larger, curvier body, you know - that's the other thing is when I was when I was straight sized, I was straight as a board, I was a rectangle, I had no hips, you know, my bust, and my hips were exactly the same size, I had no waist, I look, I really looked very masculine. So it was very, very easy to sort of, you know, manifest my, you know, the way I wanted to look. And I also felt a lot more comfortable wearing feminine clothing, because I felt like, well, I still, you know, am so androgynous looking about it's fine. Whereas now I, you know, I are not really now but like, I did go through a period of time, once I did, you know, get bigger, where I felt I had to be performatively masculine to even be read as trims at all, because I felt that I didn't look androgynous anymore. And that was very difficult for me. Um, I think that, um, I think that queer spaces are really bad about about fatphobia. I think that you know, a lot of that comes from sort of like the white cis, gay, culture, like gym culture thing, but I think it's leaked over a lot into other aspects of queer life. And I think that that's, you know, been very difficult for me. Um, it's, uh, yeah, you know, it's hard to say. And I also think that oftentimes, I think when when I think about missed opportunities in my life, when I think about, you know, my career or whatever else, I think, well, maybe if I had been sending non-binary, they could have tolerated it. Or if I had been fat and cis, they could have tolerated but the combination of the two is just too much for a lot of people. And it's made it very difficult to navigate the world. But I think it's made me again, like really double down in terms of, no, I'm not wrong, I need to, you know, I'm okay as I am, I need to find other people that are like this. I need to get rid of the people that are not willing to accept me for this. Yeah. Um, and that is a great segue into my next question. Do you have any other people in your life who identify as non-binary or trans and fat?

00:44:11.600 - 00:48:04.900

Oh, that's really tough. I only a couple really, um, my girlfriend is a trans woman and she is um she's not thin, but you know, she has also recently started hormones so everything's about to redistribute and we don't really know what that's going to turn out into. She occasionally self identifies as fat and uses the word for herself as fat but I don't necessarily know you know, she wears straight size clothing and as much as I don't love these terms, I guess we would consider her small fat. Whereas as I you know, I'm sort of more medium I guess. Um, and I guess, um, yeah, I have a couple of friends out in Massachusetts. I have a friend in Maine they're very like is like and as you can see, they're very few and far between. Um, you know, I guess most of the non-binary people I know are really going for that sort of like Twinkie aesthetic I guess [laughs] Um, and you know, if you're thin, I guess that's what you do. But, uh, I don't know, it's not, I don't know a ton of them and, and the people that I do know, it's not something that I've ever really talked about with them. It's not like it, you know, obviously, we talk about being trans but I, I have had precious few conversations about being plus size with people, the only person that I've really had like good conversations about moving through the world as a fat person with is my best friend, who is some flavor of gender non-conforming, but she is currently, you know, identifying as a woman. And so I don't know that I've really been able to have like a connection about being gender non-conforming and trans and fat with [dropped audio] And you also kind of talked about this. But do you participate in any LGBTQ+ events, like pride or things like that? Yeah, I, um, you know, when it's safe to, I almost always go to pride. Um, and I, you know, obviously, I do drag, which puts me in a lot of gay clubs and stuff like that, um, it's a - it's a weird intersection also, just because of my politics. Like, I enjoy pride. I like pride. Um, it has become very commercialized for me. So I have sort of a very tenuous relationship with pride. Um, I also, it, it is tough to be at pride to when, like everyone's like, you know, scantily clad, and I feel like, I can't do that. Because it's, you know, it's the middle of the summer and I should be able to wear whatever I want. But I know that, you know, someone's going to try and start something with me if I if I'm not, you know, adequately dressed for my size because like, I feel like the cis gays really like to point that one out. Um, and but like, even being in gay clubs can be tough, you know, as not just as a non-binary person, but as a fat person as well, when you know, you're moving through these, these really just any space where I have to move through a predominantly cis gay man crowd. It's really difficult for me, and I think that it was already difficult identifying as non-binary in those spaces and to be taken seriously as a queer person. But also, you know, adding the extra factor of being plus size like they really let you know, they don't want you there. Yeah, and, and that was gonna be my question is do you feel that the LGBTQ+ community is accepting of fat people -

00:48:04.900 - 00:53:34.700

No! Absolutely not. Absolutely not! I think that there are corners of it. But I think that even in those quarters, there's still a lot of systemic nonsense going on. I had a roommate who swore to me up and down, Oh, I'm so you know, fat positive, blah, blah, blah, and whatever, say anything to my face. But I remember one time, I was sitting in the living room, and they came in, they didn't know I was there, they ran right to the mirror and go, ugh, I'm so glad I didn't look the way I thought I did, I thought I was such a fat tub of lard today. And I was like, oh, cute, that's so charming, that you would say that behind my back when you think I wasn't here, but pretend to be, you know, super, you know, fat positive fat liberation otherwise, and it's just like, it just shows that it's so ingrained in our culture that even people that you know, people that pretend to to be allegedly, you know, fat positive, it's still ingrained in them, and they and I think it sucks. I think that the other reason that it's really easy to uphold fatphobia in marginalized communities, white marginalized communities is that when you have a community that has already been othered, for the way they look, they are going to try and find any excuse to think they are better than anyone else, what makes them more attractive than that person. And the biggest reason that that thins are afraid of fat people having confidence is because they feel that they will no longer have any worth if fat people are seen as equal. And I feel like that is like really thrown into too high relief in queer spaces a lot of the time, unfortunately. Yeah. Um, and kind of touching on lots of different things we've already talked about, but can you describe a past experience or an average experience shopping for clothes and how your identity as being trans also being fat plays into that? Oh my god. Okay, so shopping for clothes is the absolute bane of my existence as both a trans and a plus size person. Um, I - so one of the things that is actually really, really saved me are there are a couple of online plus sized thrift shops that have some really cool stuff. The other thing I also I think is important to note is that, again, I am poor, I have lived in poverty most of my life, which means I can't necessarily be dropping, you know, because there's a lot of these really interesting plus sustainable black brands, but I'm like, I'm not dropping $80 on a button down shirt, like I can't do it, you know. And while I appreciate I'm not, you know, not to say that it isn't worth that I understand that we need to pay, you know, labor, we need to pay artists, we need to pay what things are worth, and that's fine. I personally am a victim of capitalism [laughs]. So for me, it's navigating those three things coming together. And because of that, I had a period where most of my clothes were horribly made, because it was just whatever I could find that would, you know, cover up my body. It wasn't about what I liked, it wasn't about whether it was good quality, etc. I'm very lucky now that we're also inside most of the time. So I have a little more time to sort of cherry pick, you know, things but I am at a point where I actually have a wardrobe that I really like. I curate my wardrobe very closely. I do most of my shopping online. And I - it is tough, because there aren't a lot of plus size specific retailers. And man, some of the stuff they're selling is plus size. Like you would never try and didn't sell this to a straight size person. What the hell is this thing? Like? It's some of it's just so ugly. And the first thing that I really hate is when they're like, Oh, it's plus size? I'm like, no, just because you made a straight size item bigger dimensions does not make it plus size. Like Let me tell you. That's another really annoying thing, like , so trying to navigate all of that. But I am at the point now where I'm like, I have a couple of places that I you know, do shop from I do a lot of secondhand vintage through places like you know, Plus Brooklyn and Cake Plus Size and Luvsick Plus all online, they're really wonderful second hand outlets for for actually really interesting, cool vintage stuff for plus sized people. Um, and, yeah, it's, it's really horrible, especially pants shopping, oh my god, okay. Um, because I also have, on top of that, I also have all of these sensory issues, almost all of my sensory issues as a neurodivergent person revolve around clothes and how they feel and how they fit and like, if it's too scratchy, if it's not stretchy, and it's like, I have like three outfits. But, uh, you know, I'm slowly, slowly getting there. And I think that a huge part of that was just accepting that I can't be trying to change my body to fit in straight size clothing anymore. Actually, deciding to just commit to wearing plus sized clothing has changed the game for me for sure. And with, um, you know, kind of the sensory issues in mind. Have you ever had any experience where like, finding an article of clothing, you know, gives you that gender euphoria in real, you know, validating your identity as trans?

00:53:34.700 - 00:58:32.100

Oh, yeah, um, I think so there are a number of really cool places that are doing just like unisex clothing and extended sizes. Now, there's a really cool British company that's called run and fly. And they do some really cool overalls, I just got these B overalls, they're really cool. And they're made again, they're unisex, so they're made for whoever and they made in, you know, an extended size. So I could buy a large and it still fits me at you know, having a 41 inch waist and having a 50 inch hip and I'm like, holy mackerel, you know, to find well-made clothing that does that is like so and that is like cool. And actually my style, I also have like, a kind of a quirky sense of style. Um, you know, I guess a lot of a lot of trans and queer people, you know, a probably would say that as well. Um, so for me being able to find the pieces that are interesting, be able to find pieces that are specifically unisex and to find pieces that do have an extended size range are like the holy grail. And every now and again, you find when you're like, ooh, I found I also I was like, at a comics convention in 2019. And I found this button down shirt, and I find a button down shirt that fits both my neck and my hips is nearly impossible and it wasn't darted. It was just like a unisex size and it had this really cool pattern, and I've worn it almost every single day since I've gotten it. So occasionally you just find those holy grail pieces, and you're just it, you know, changes everything, and actually, finding something that makes me feel good about the way that I look is so important that whenever I do come across a piece like that, I try and go out of my way to invest in them, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Um, and kind of moving into our last section. Um, I am curious kind of about social media and how that influences um, you know, gender identity and being fat. And so what social media platforms do you use? Um, I so mostly nowadays, I am on Twitter. I do I have historically used and do occasionally still use Instagram, and Facebook and Tumblr as well. Tumblr isn't so much of a thing, because it's mostly just like aesthetic stuff. It's not really I'm not really seeing a lot of like people posting about themselves on there. Twitter is different because, again, that's not a lot of the people. First of all, a lot of people I follow on there are trans. And it's sometimes actually is detrimental to me because like, there's this notion of like, the queer Twitter thirst trap sort of thing. And I'm like, God, can I ever even post one of those? It's, I don't know, it's not always the greatest. Instagram, though, has actually been really good for me. In the beginning, it was rough, because I was following a lot of these like really buff musical theater people. And I was like, this is not great for me. But once I sort of cleared those out and started following a lot of these fat liberation, people like Virgie Tovar, and, you know, all these, like really wonderful human beings somehow forgot what their name is, their handle's comfyfat, which is they are a non-binary fat person who like was very fundamental, and, you know, helping me see myself in a positive light. But a lot of those people, you know, being able to see people on the regular that looked like me that were, you know, not only that were like dressing fun, but also like not having to dress fun sometimes. That's the other thing is I hate the sort of, like, you have to be put together if you're fat, this sort of like a notion, you know, like this notion of like, you can't just have like, you know, you can see this like skinny white girl with the sweatpants and messy bun, but God forbid, a fat person does that. You know, so being able to see these people in, in just living their lives, and you know, having fun and enjoying life and enjoying each other. And seeing people that look like me on Instagram was like, actually very positive. And I, I obviously, you know, we hear a lot about how social media can be very negative, and like, you know, this notion of like influencers who've completely doctored their photos, leading people to believe that you should look like them, etc. I know that France even now has a law that you have to state if a photo has been photoshopped on Instagram now, which is kind of wild. Actually, I never thought that we would, you know, get to that point as a society. But um, you know, I think, for me, overall, it's been quite positive, especially Instagram has been very positive. Awesome. Yeah, I, I follow quite a few people that you mentioned, as well. So, and, and has social media influenced the way you identify at all?

00:58:32.100 - 01:01:13.900

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think that, you know, I was 19 years old on Tumblr, and here it is, the first time I really ever heard the word non-binary, it's the first time I had ever interacted with trans people my own age, and in a positive way. And I think if I hadn't had that it would have been, it would have taken me a lot longer to kind of discover who I am. I'm incredible, you know, say, say what you want about 2012 Tumblr, but I, you know, really, I am very, very grateful that I was there at that time, because I think that, you know, without it again, it would have made it a lot harder, a lot more difficult. And it would have taken me a lot longer, to not only find, you know, my people and who I am, but really, to come to terms with a lot of that stuff. You know, having that sort of built in community was a huge, a huge point for me being able to come out and be me, so. And are you a part of any, like, specific online communities that deal with either gender or body stuff? Yeah, um, I oh, I mean, I'm part of a lot of like, queer groups specifically, like I'm part of a couple of transition groups and part of like, you know, just like, like non-binary like meme groups and just like silly stuff like that. Like having those like little affirming, you know, connections with people is, you know, gives - to give me that that good old serotonin [laughs] um, you know, it's I think that those are really actually fundamental. Because you know, I'm very blessed that most of the people in my life are queer at this point. Like, there's something very special about connecting specifically with other non-binary people in like a lighthearted way that isn't just like, Oh, hey, we suffer all the time. So that's nice. I'm in a couple of like, plus sized groups. I'm in a group on Facebook, that's just like, you know, plus size, goth people, which it's like, it's just like aesthetic posts, like silly stuff like that. But I've actually made a couple of really good online friends from that group of just like, really interesting, cool people. And I think that, you know, groups like that are really valuable, especially right now, when we're doing almost everything virtually. I think that that's really, you know, a very legitimate and very big sense of community for a lot of people right now. [phone announces time] Sorry! No, you're totally fine! Um, yeah, that totally makes sense. Um, and so we talked about body positivity, Health at Every Size, the fat liberation, are there any kind of other social media movements that you are like hashtags or things like that, that you feel particularly represent trans people, or fat people, or both?

01:01:13.900 - 01:05:27.300

Ooh, that's really tough to say, because I have horrible recollection when it comes to like, trying to recall any kind of information. Um, but I mean, I'm sure um - I don't know, I think there's some some really interesting notions right now, especially within the trans community on Twitter, I'm seeing a lot of people because you know, you always hear that, oh, trans men are men, trans women are women. And you know, trans people are valid, like, yes, we know, we're valid, what are you going to do about it? What are you going to do to actually help us and there's some really interesting discourse happening on Twitter of that right now. that I think has a hashtag that goes with I cannot for the life and remember what it is. But there's, I mean, there's some really interesting sort of, you know, things happening in terms of like, the trans community online these days, especially with everything, you know, sort of politically going on right now. That I don't know, would be happening if words and an online space, which I think is really interesting. I think - yeah, I don't know. And in terms of, like, you know, the sort of plus sized arena, I think we really, we've covered a lot of it. Um, again, for me, like, the biggest thing was discovering, like body neutrality, that one, like really, that sort of movement is was fundamental to me, and sort of the notion of like, body positivity, and this and that just like, never did anything for me. Because, again, it was this the sort of discovery of being able to unlink my notion of desirability and my worthiness. And so that one for me is probably the big one. That's the one that I always sort of recommend people look into when they're starting this journey. And that was gonna be my next question. You're great at this, like answering my next question [laughs] What advice would you give to other non-binary and fat people on social media? I would say the first thing is to stop, you know, in any way that is possible, stop comparing yourself to non-binary people, because they have a very different experience from you. Find as many other fat non-binary people as you can, and follow them so that you can see people that look like you, the biggest thing is being able to see people that look like you. Um, and then the next you know, it's just it's finding other people like you, which is not to say you need to cut everyone that isn't just like you had in your life. But you know, I think that having those people having those connections, having, you know, people you can talk to about moving through the world as person of size, having people you can talk to non-binary, having the people that understand that intersection is very important. I think that you know, and getting rid of getting rid of the fatphobic queers is a huge thing, because being beholden to that part of the community, stalled me for so long. And I guess the biggest piece of advice is that it's going to take time, it's gonna, there's, you're going to have a period of time that you are going to be following all the right people, you're going to be telling yourself, you know, whenever you have those negative thoughts are gonna be like, no, that's wrong, that's, you know, internalized that phobia talking and you're still gonna feel shitty, like, you're still gonna feel bad. Um, and you're gonna wonder what you're doing wrong. And it's not it's that you have this huge trauma. And for many of us, it has lasted throughout most of our lives, and it takes time to heal. And that even when you do get to a place, you're going to finally realize one day we're not good, we are okay. And then that's going to go on to good and that's going to go on to I like myself or maybe just I'm okay with myself, and that's fine. And there's still going to be bad days. It's not you know, again, there's no such thing as sort of reaching ultimate body enlightenment, I don't think but there's it's going to be - if you keep doing this work, you will eventually get to a point where you don't feel horrible anymore. And you can go be part of the world. I guess is my biggest thing. And what is one thing or multiple things? That your current self wishes, wishes your past self would have known about being trans and fat?

01:05:27.300 - 01:09:06.600

Oh, gosh. Um, I mean, the biggest thing is I, gosh - I guess I wish I had explored a lot of queer history sooner, that definitely would have helped me. I think that there is no way for me to know that the reason I didn't like the way I was in my body was because of trans issues and because of body issues. I think that, you know, I hit these things when I needed to hit them. But I guess, you know, the biggest piece of advice I could give my, my younger self was that. Gosh, I wish someone had told me [audio dropped] did not define me. Because I think I would have gone through a lot less sort of compulsive heterosexuality, I would have gone through a lot less performative femininity, or performative masculinity. I wish that, you know, I wish someone had told me that thinking, feeling guilty every single time you eat is not normal. or shouldn't be normal. You know? Um, yeah. It's a, you know, it's I think it's really hard to say, but I think I guess I guess that would that would be it. And last question, are there any questions? I haven't asked you that you wished I had or anything you want to talk more about? Oh, gosh, I feel like I've done so much. But I feel like too much probably. Um, then. I guess I don't know. I think, um, I really think that, you know, you've you've covered a lot of things. Um, I, I guess, one thing that comes to mind is like, I think it's kind of wild that - how early people start getting fed the sort of notion of, of fitness and not being allowed to be in their body. Like, I remember the first time I ever realized that my body was wrong, was when I was eight years old and I was at a friend's house and my mother, not my mother, my friend's mom told me that I was not allowed to get seconds. And when the other kids asked why I wasn't allowed to have seconds she said, oh, you know, Ly and I are watching our figures. I was eight years old. Like, that's ridiculous. And I think that we do star it off very young and I think that when you already have body dysmorphia, starting that young - and I became incredibly self-conscious of my body after that, and how much taller and how much bigger I was than all the others. I also shot up and you know, filled out a lot quicker than the other kids, and then that stopped because I'm very small now, I'm very short. Um, but I was very self-conscious about it. And I think that when you already have that going on in your head, and then you hit puberty, and you have the dysphoria stuff also happening. Like, that's just a horrible combination. I and I sometimes wonder if I hadn't had those experiences, you know, these sort of pre-pubescent experiences with fatphobia. If I hadn't, if I if I would have maybe been able to deal with my dysphoria when I was a tween a little better. And that's kind of it. Yeah, um, thank you for sharing that. Thank you for sharing everything. I don't have any more questions. So yeah, your your interview has been extremely insightful. So I will stop recording now.

01:09:06.600 - 01:09:07.000

Okay.