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Hello. Today is November 16th 2022. My name is Rafer Friedman, and I am a senior at American University and I'm here with Maya Wahrman on their story. Maya, would you please introduce yourself? Hi, I'm Maya Wahrman I am a licensed social worker in New Jersey. I've been working with refugees and immigrants for quite a few years. Now, I am a dual citizen and Multicultural citizen of Israel and the U.S. and that definitely plays into my life. And I'm really excited to talk about my story here today. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Do I have your permission to record this interview? Yes,

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Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for agreeing to speak with me today. And could you start by maybe telling us a little bit about yourself, like, where you grew up and your family growing up? How would you describe them? Yeah, so I grew up mostly in Bloomington Indiana, everyone except me in my Nuclear, I was born in Israel. I was born in Michigan while my dad was a postdoc there, and so grew up in a very, you know, Bloomington is a really nice college town relatively diverse very liberal as far as People sometimes hear Indiana, but it's not. It's not like that. Mostly grew up there. You look a little bit in England before that and in Israel when my family was on sabbatical there and it's very my we were real only allowed to speak Hebrew at home unless there were guests and that was how my parents ensured that I could speak Hebrew. Both of us me and my sister has one older sister. She has moved back to Israel as have my parents there now divorced, but we're all pretty close. And have always lived this kind of dual life. And then, all of my other family was in Israel. So we would go like every summer Christmas or both and, you know, see my cousins and and everything. And so I was really into musical theater and theater and singing and my sister was two. She actually studied vocal performance in college. She's now a music and English teacher and that was a really big part of my childhood was musical theater camp and then our choir and high school, my closest friends from high school were all in that choir with me and we did, you know, performances and things.

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So that was a big part of my childhood, and then I think just the way my parents would describe it, I always had a kind of social justice, and I don't know what thinking in those terms, but I became very involved with kind of the lgbtq cause when I was in Middle School in high school, my high school was basically, the first gay straight Alliance that existed in Indiana. There were others. By the time I got to high school and been around for a while and my best friend in Middle School, came out to me. I was the first person besides his parents that he came out to his, by, when we were 14. And so, I like was all four foot nine of me wanted to, you know, protect him from like the homophobic football players or whatever. And I think that's what really got me into kind of social causes. That was something that was really important to me and I inherited a different gay-straight Alliance that was created for other folks, from Southern Indiana, whoo-hoo schools didn't have this supportive Network. That's just a little bit about me. Yeah, that's really interesting. And so in in high school, you mentioned the, the lgbtq social work that you are social cause that you were in and sort of how Did you was it your friend that helped you get involved with that? Or was that mainly just, you saw that and you knew that you wanted to become involved with that. It was a little mix. Yeah, so socially after that, you know? Another friend came out to me and not in the same kind of like I was the first person. But, you know, I was starting to understand that there was an injustice around me that mattered to me. And so, you know, my friend and I both joined this group with. Then I became one of the leaders and I just I saw that there was kind of work. Work to be done. And so I wanted to do it and then that other friend was he had founded this group for the larger Southern Indiana community. And then he was leaving for boarding school. So I kind of took the reins of that. And, you know, there was always the International Day of Silence. Like we did a number of events throughout the year about raising awareness, and it's funny looking back like, I now work in, you know, policy in social work, and I don't remember so much the content of what we did necessarily, but it was a really important part of my life. And I learned a lot and I learned how to speak with people about this cause. And I think that was kind of a focus of the group was like, if you're in this High School, how do you have conversations with people who say, slurs or Or our disagree or you know what's acceptable? What's not. And so I think those are some of the lessons that I kind of took away.

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Yeah. No that's really interesting. And was was your was your family very supportive of you in high school working with these causes? And did they was that when they knew that you had a The social worker or in social causes at least. Definitely, I'm very fortunate that I, my family was very supportive. They were very proud of me. I mean, also like I feel like an interesting context. My family as far as Israelis go is pretty left, you know, especially when it comes to the israeli-palestinian conflict. My dad would practice my Hebrew with me waive. Reading islets articles, which is like the the left newspaper in Israel and I feel like sometimes people hear that I'm Israeli and they've never met an Israeli who like opposes then hopefully there's more of us out in the world than there were when I was in high school. But we were a family that talked about social causes, right? Like, you know, I didn't find this from nowhere. I think it's really important to kind of thank my parents for that and, and emphasize their role. And so, everyone knew, you know, my I was going to do to do something that she believed in. Right? I think social work has been more interesting. Curvy Road in terms of how I got there because social work is a field is somewhat looked down upon in a lot of contexts. And when I was 18, I thought about social work and then I thought about it and I would talk about it in college, but I had also I would defend it and at the same time I got this Insidious. Narrative. Also that I had to end up contesting of like it's not the best way to make impact and stuff like that. And so that was kind of a more winding road but but definitely I mean, I do think anyone who's met me since age is no one like Funny things. She doesn't believe it. I get bored or like I can't, I say that. I'm I'm an impatient person and there's parts of that that I grapple with, in my personal relationships, but there's parts of that that are really integral to who I am because I'm impatient for the World to Change and as I get older that's different because we all get older and in see things differently but I think there is a part of it. That's true. I haven't, you know, complete Left the field or anything. No definitely. And you know, you mentioned your family was your family's from Israel and I how did that play when you're living in Indiana? And in high school did that how was that experience? You know? Because I'm sure that's not very common there. Yeah, so in some ways it was not, and I think it was really important to my parents, especially my dad like we're Israeli. Here's my dog. Where is really like I were not, you know, he was really like we're not American which is like a narrative that I grappled with later, because I am also American like that just wasn't true for me. Maybe it was somewhat true for him, as you know, an immigrant. But anyway, I ate definitely made me think a lot about Out belong also I mean we did have both a Jewish community and an Israeli Community because of the University. But there was always this like part of our life as elsewhere and like our family is not here and politically I think, you know I cared about the politics in both places. When I in 2008 I you know canvassed for Obama. I couldn't vote yet but that was like important to me and Indiana went blue that year. You know, things to me, obviously, but I was very invested in Israeli Politics as well in a way that now I feel like I only have bandwidth for one and I live in the US and I work in the US and it is what it is. So it definitely had a huge part of my upbringing and, you know, being culturally Jewish. Like, I also identify as kind of somewhat reform, but my family. My parents are not Religious at all but like the culture being Jewish and then being Israeli was very important to them.

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Yeah. And you mentioned being Jewish and I was going to ask about your religion and how that played into your life. Do you think that being Jewish was that was there a vibrant? Jewish Community there and did you feel? I guess, do you feel that? Your sense of belonging, you know, your ability to help people that don't have a community such as the lgbtq community during that time, you know, do you think? That's because of some of the challenges that you would felt having a community here. Such an interesting question. I think, we had we had a community and that Community was important to us. It definitely was a minority community. And like, you feel growing up even in Bloomington in Indiana, like there's, you know, a hundred churches in town and one synagogue, and our synagogue was literally between two churches. And as a small kid, I called it prayer Road and like You know, Christmas was everywhere and everyone would always be like, oh, you must be so excited, hanukkah's coming. I'm like, my family doesn't really care about Hanukkah. Like, we like candles, but it's not a big deal. Like we do Passover. Like that's, you know, just a lot of like misunderstandings. I feel like never any animosity or anything. And in some ways I think my struggled with belonging personally, was more being a daughter of immigrant parents like Well, like, you know, never had the boots that other kids had or whatever. It was like our house was smaller than most of my friends houses and I thought it was great and my family traveled more than other folks, which is like, actually a, pretty Israeli thing. Like Israelis are known to travel internationally. A lot. And so, there were a lot of things that felt like we're different in these ways that are not as much tied specifically to my Religion. But there are things. I mean, you know, I was in high like, in these shows, in high school and I, we had one of our shows was right after Passover. So I missed one of the tech rehearsals because it was seder and people were like, what are you doing? And I was like you wouldn't be expected to miss Christmas and go to a rehearsal like this is not a negotiable or you know then we did Fiddler on the Roof my senior year and soul My mom and I would always provide context and they're kind of funny stories of like, you know, 7 kidpower crossed himself on stage. I'm like, we don't do that like no. So so I think there's a lot like that. I also, there was. So my mom was actually the Jewish studies reference librarian at Indiana University. My dad's a professor of History. So very academic family and there was one anti-semitic incident that someone desecrated some Hebrew Books in the library. But what I remember of the experience, my mom was obviously really upset but how much the community rallied around them, that it I mean, I didn't erase it but it was just the swell in support of the Jewish Community of Judaism. And Hebrew bucks was so much larger than this one act and I think that's that is what I take from that incident. I do think my the family history of knowing that we are we've often been a people without a home, we're not fully welcome and you know most Israelis not all but a lot of Israelis have family histories like mine in the sense that we're all from kind of Poland and Russia. But one side of the family. Operations got escaped to Argentina. Two programs and we're in Arjun. Israel to join the keyboard. Super secular communist Jews, and on the other hand, Father, married. My grave. Pull into the different for everybody. Like secular intellectual achievements in Frankfort but then the kids got kicked out of school in 1933 and they were like you know we're not gonna wait around. We're also zionists and then they went to Palestine and so you know in Israel these stories are very common but I think sometimes hear like people are like wow it's someone told me once your family was so itinerant. Me said my family. Escaping places that weren't good for them you know. Like and he was from a country that didn't have that kind of History. You know his family had been this for Generations in the same state or you know, Village so it's fine. But I think that that contributes in some sense and then knowing that I have had the most stable kind of upbringing being who I am mean my parents too. Two. But they were also growing up with the very young Israeli State. My parents, you know, lived through the early Wars of Israel like lived in bomb shelters for a few days during the Six-Day War and things. And so like I think much stability and acceptance. I have faced gives me a ring. Let me try to have that on to others has definitely been a motivator. Yeah, no I can only imagine and what was the last thing that you said. I'm sorry. I just want to make sure I got that right? Oh, yeah, spot.

00:17:44.200 - 00:20:45.600

Yeah, I feel my responsibility, partly because of my family history and my people's history is to give that, I mean some of that stability and that gift. I think with Refugee work, we did have refugees in my family and I have grown up with an immense privilege that my grandparents could never have imagined. Even having been fairly middle class and not having kind of a holocaust story. Really, I mean, that is already an immense privilege, but they left Germany because they knew they were no longer welcome there. And I have not had that experience in my life and that makes me see the world somewhat differently than my grandparents generation, which I, it does make me think like, what is kind of the responsibility for the other other people now. Yeah. No. I definitely. And do you think do you think that being I guess when you established yourself and when your family established themselves in the u.s. what what do you think made your family want to go back to Israel and what has do, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. A lot of Israeli kids have this experience that their parents are like we're moving back to Israel, we're moving back to Israel. Like and a lot of them don't have her do it. It's something they say. And then they retire in the U.S. and I don't know, moved to Florida or whatever my dad was all, he's stream, lie like Israeli, like loves the politics and this, and that. And, and actually, I mean, it was kind of, I won't bore you with the details, but there were Twilight, like, two different. At times that he almost got a job and it fell through and we were supposed to move back to Jerusalem and then we didn't and then he got a job and I was in high school and I don't want to leave when I was in high school and then be drafted into the Israeli Army. Like because that was that age, precipice in which I would be drafted. And so he ended up doing a semester here semester there but like four and a lot of ways. it is in some ways like her family is all their baby, but she I think she enjoyed them and kind of somewhat quieter piece of American Life. The more polite piece or tone that people had a little more like, I think that was more comfortable but you know, she's back and fully settled in but the transition moving back for her was much harder.

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I mean, my dad kind of like slid back in and I remember he visited me a year after he moved and he was like, why are we in this Dunkin Donuts? I hate strip malls, like with, this is so dumb. Like, I don't, you know, like it was just this whole thing, I don't. I also think, I mean, their parents it was so important to them that there be an Israeli State and to their upbringing. I mean my mom's parents like left Argentina to join a kibbutz and, you know, in some ways, I think she feels more comforted that she is kind of like living out, especially what her Mom would have wanted, like not that her mom wouldn't have been happy she died when she was very young and my dad's father, you know, that's alright, Hebrew University. And my dad is like it in strengthening Academia and Israel. And so those things are important to that. Yeah. And do you? I guess how was your family's like we talked about this a little bit before but do you feel like it was generally a good adopt like when your family came to the US? Did you feel like they were easy easily? Adaptive like did you feel like they were comfortable that they feel comfortable? Or was it just a complete lifestyle change that? You know I wasn't Isn't there. So I don't really know. They came with my sister when she was one year old, and my dad was a graduate student, and I think they had a graduate student community that other International people and in graduate school is always a transition. They were new parents. Like, I, I remember, they told me these different stories of things that surprise them or, but I think that was a good time in their lives. And then I was born in Michigan, and then we lived in England for Yours. And my dad was in my sister were pretty unhappy in England. I think they felt their even more that they didn't belong, and all these kinds of ways and we ended up moving to Indiana. So in some ways, I don't know. And in some ways I can imagine but I do you know, I do think it's a testament how much my dad was like we're Israeli you know ten years like his daughter was born in the u.s.a. And all this stuff like that Vigor had to come from somewhere, right? And, and that insistence that like he was not becoming Americanized, like it wasn't touching him, so. Yeah. And did you feel the? You mentioned that you were speaking Hebrew all the time in your house and did that? Like how, how did that play into your connection with Israel? Do you feel like that because of that, you always had a connection or do you feel like that your family was you guys were just always connected there.

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A lot of both. I mean Hebrew, what Hebrew really gave me was the gift of being connected with my family. Means he'll have varying levels of English, but that has allowed me to have like real genuine relationships with them. And I mean, now I'm super grateful as you know, a nine-year-old, I would talk to my job in English and he would just say to me very calmly like in Hebrew, like I don't understand what you're saying. I would scream like your college professor, like, of course, you know, English and he was so sad that Has like, kudos to him, but I mean, going there a lot like, thinking about Israel. You know, I also like 2004 ish must have been the second intifada and I remember people like I would be like, oh, we're going to Israel to visit my family over Christmas break. People would be like I'm praying for you and I would get so angry. Like I think I'm going to visit my family like I mean partly I didn't understand as a ten-year-old but I was like it's not what you see on the news. We go eat pizza like you know, and I think there's elements of both of like I didn't understand and like it's not a total war zone, you know, you can go and figure out how to be there, so I did feel connected and that was important to my parents so then it became important to me and I think as an adult I've been grappling some with losing some of that connection or feeling frustrated and very frustrated. This is kind of, it does have to do with my story of how I ended up in Refugee work because when I was in college, I was you know, like I want to like bolster my community and my community is in the Middle East and my community includes Palestinians, and like, this is what the kind of work I want to do. And I studied Arabic for three years and then the, you know, working on these really Palestine conflict was so self implicating every moment of every day and and I didn't know what to do. I mean, I ended up in the situation in college. I was a Sophomore. And half of me thought that I should pause college and go join the Israeli Defense Forces because my parents had moved back, and I might get a draft notice. And half of me started to believe that there shouldn't be a Jewish State because I don't believe in kind of an exclusionary State politics, which is way too general. But I mean, just to kind of tell the story and so that was, I mean, it was like mentally exhausting to feel those two halves of me all the time. And so I think in some ways I had to let go a little as I lived here because it was, it was too much. I couldn't like live my life and live in a way that I felt like I was living out my values, which is something that's incredibly important to me. I mean, it was just so hard, so. Yeah, no, and that's completely understandable. And I think it's very challenging and sounds very challenging. I can't imagine. Going off of that. Like, do you feel that your connection, you know, with Israel right now with all these with the rise and these anti-semitic acts and hate crimes, like has that, have you felt more more connected because of it or have you felt more anger, I guess because of it. What's your experience like not being there and experiencing these types of hate crimes? Thats a really good question. I've been talking with a friend who she's American Jewish, but is a scholar of the Middle East and we were kind of discussing. Like there was this, you know, threat on synagogues and New Jersey for like 24 hours and I am part of a Shabbat community and we were meeting on Friday in a synagogue and like we were, you know, they got enhanced security and, and I was, I got this alert at work and I was upset and I didn't want to call. I knew that I'm the only Jewish person. My office were small office, it's not that surprising, but like I knew that I would get frustrated if they were over. I also like think that there is a lot of overblowing of certain anti-Semitism, especially when it comes to Israel. I mean so it's a bomb issue, right? Like but this is actually a real anti-semitic threat that I feel upset about but I don't want to get into that whole, you know, 30 minute debate with someone when I'm struggling and they're just trying to be nice and that I'm like, but actually like so I just shut up and I went home and I then talked to this friend and she said, like, I totally understand that. It just feels so nuanced. And I feel that way about a lot of things with Israel that I think partly, I've receded right? Have that complicated a conversation all the time with people who are not as attuned to the nuances of the situation. Yeah.

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I think it's such a challenging issue in general because so many people seem to think they know everything about it and it just doesn't you know. In reality, it's a very complicated issue that unless you're studying it or, you know, a lot about it, it can be very hard topic to talk about and so I think that you're yeah, you're definitely right and I I now I want to talk about your work and I was wondering if you could you mention social, work and working with refugees. And I was just wondering if you could describe currently your day-to-day job and sort of what that looks like and if they're yeah. Yeah. So if I may, I'm gonna Use a little story segway. So I mentioned that I kind of left this, you know, Israeli-Palestinian conflict work and my eyes have been opened as an adult. You know, the Syrian conflict started the year I graduated high school like and so this was another way to engage with what's really important to me on, you know, after college, I entered this realm and I did a number of different things and I'm still today. It's really different than my work was a year ago today. I currently work in the government, we have an office of new Americans, founded by the governor by executive order in 2019, and I work in the refugee resettlement program within that. So the kind of administration I'm in Refugee health. So the administration of the health services that refugees and when I say refugees, it's humanitarian populations eligible for these things. So folks who have Asylum, the Afghan humanitarian Parolees who came from the evacuation Ukrainians coming through the uniting for Ukraine program Cuban and Haitian Parolees and victims of trafficking and special immigrant visas, who are folks, who worked with the military, the U.S. military or for us interests in Afghanistan or Iraq. So when I say refugees that's in my work, at least that's generally who I'm talking about. So building up the programs for them to access health. And my role is and that is really Competency of providers in working with refugees making sure language access making sure that they have the kind of cultural information that they need about the different populations. Understanding that there's so much diversity and it's not just ethnic or religious, you know, geographic we have folks who are doctors and like, you know, upper class white collar workers and their countries who are coming here. And now, I have to access social services and we have folks who have never been able to access the education system where they're from or, you know, have lived a life of persecution and they're all refugees and they are all being served by these programs with their experiences are incredibly different. So we do that, I work on troubleshooting access to Medicaid. These populations are generally eligible for Medicaid coverage and but as you can imagine that in a big bureaucracy, a lot of them end up getting denied because status documents aren't working or all kinds of things. So basically, when someone needs access to services or benefits like I'm a liaison for that. So that's what I do currently and a year ago I was an on-the-ground case manager for families and individuals. I did some you know airport pickups of people arriving from wherever they were coming from and was kind of the worked as part of to get their lives started. So now in my job we work with those service providers but I was, you know, doing that and focuses were kind of the main case management benefits. So applying for people's benefits, making sure they had what they needed and then education. So getting kids enrolled in school, getting them to a school. Troubleshooting everything from okay this you know, person wants to go to Community College or get scholarships. To, this young person needs an individualized, education plan needs education, something like that. So it's important for me to say both, because I'm still struggling somewhat with that am I a clinician and a direct service provider am I in the government? Right now, I'm in the government. Their reasons for that, you can get into that, I do think it's important. I also really miss direct service work, my master's degree is in clinical social work, and so that's kind of more what I was trained to do, but I also have always had an eye towards policy so yeah. Wow, that's that's great. That's the whole sounds like you're covering all the bases.

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Im trying (Chuckles) Well, that's great. And was so, you mentioned that you were doing airport pickups a little while ago and I was wondering if there is a particular encounter you had or particular pick up you had with someone with a refugee that remember or that comes to mind as, you know, something that was either very significant or just representative of the challenges that face refugees. You know, when they come into the U.S. I'm sure when you're going to do, but I just. I love this question and I will try not to take up the rest of our time with just this question. The first airport pick-up I did was March 17th 2020. This was the last flight that brought officially like allowed refugees in before the pandemic shut down, there was a family of asylees. So folks who had Asylum here, whose two sons, this is a kind of a complicated family Visa situation were stuck. They were Syrian they were stuck in Dubai because their visas elapsed? When the Syrian conflict started and if they went to Syria, they would be immediately drafted. And this family had been trying to get their sons for years and years and there was, you know letters the congressman and this and a lot of people were, you know, really instrumental in to making this happen and they finally got their travel visas. And you have like a 90-day travel window when you get your Refugee travel visa and, you know, covid is like, oh, are they gonna shut down planes? For whatever and mom is like, just get my son's out, you know, we've been waiting for so long and so there were these two brothers on this flight and one special immigrant visa from Afghanistan. They were on the same flight out of Dubai. And this, after this, you know, it took two, I think, like, two months before the U.S. government started restarted, the refugee resettlement program, officially obviously, people could, you know, find their own way, but who's like travel was kind of paid for and arranged etcetera. And so I got to go to JFK Airport just to make sure that everyone got their okay. And, you know, none of us had masks, we didn't know where to get masks, like, it was such a weird or like, not touching anything, because I thought that would help me not get covid or like no one knew anything about covid. But then just seeing this family except their, their two sons and be reunited. I mean, it was so hopeful And then I got to drive the other Afghan guy home who was like, you know on his own and more typical Refugee story in some ways of like came here because he can and had to leave his family back home and we had a conversation about Afghan and U.S. politics in the way back. I mean he's incredibly educated than I ended up, getting to work with him later. So that experience, I mean, holds a lot a lot of what can happen? I will say, I've had two. I mean I've had other airport pickups quite a few but I had two within a month that were both very meaningful to me with folks who didn't speak any English at all. So, I brought an interpreting volunteer both times and I was the case manager and the driver. And one is this trans woman from Afghanistan who had never had access to a computer. And so we had said, or, you know, you're in a COVID quarantine and you're going to do a you know, Zoom intake and she was like, what is that? And I was like, okay, well I'm coming to your house. Like, I'm not going to abandon you in a new country. Like, and the other one was this incredibly kind older Ukrainian man, who spoke not a word of English, but was telling his life story to my neighbor who spoke Russian, You know. Question. And then I was they were best friends and he told her apparently in Russian he was like, Maya is the best driver I've ever seen. Okay, man. And he was just so kind and grateful and then we went for a home, visit a month later and he bought us roses like, you know, and that's also that is also emblematic. I mean, I all of those stories are very different and they're all emblematic in their own ways. No, it sounds like it and I think it's very interesting to hear individual stories like what you were talking about and you know, picking up one individual who I'm guessing maybe they do, but who likely doesn't you know have family or anything here and it's very challenging for them to adapt and then also, you know, coming here with your family and, you know, starting a whole new life with kids and I think that there

00:41:29.100 - 00:45:25.350

Absolutely. Two very different things that have different challenges in their own ways and sounds like you're seeing it from all different aspects and I think that's great is so, do you think that how has the experience for people that are you know coming to the U.S. and how's has like how has their experience been with language for what you've observed and the work that you've done. I'm sure it varies, but is it do you find it more often than not is it very challenging for them to learn English? Or is it something that, you know, is kind of easier to learn because of the resources that are provided? Yeah, I mean, I think, for, for those who don't come with English, which is a good portion though, definitely not everyone. It is challenging because there are those resources and they, you know, part of our mandate and Refugee resettlement is to provide ESL classes and tutoring and so and there's a lot of kind of volunteer manpower to help it, but I think there's its English is somewhat loaded. First of While some people have an aptitude for learning languages and others do not and unfortunately this is not it's not an academic Pursuit. Like you don't get to choose. This is important to me or not like it's a barrier to success in this country. If you if you find languages particularly difficult but I think it is loaded in terms of, you know, our English teacher, who I'm very close with who I used to work with, like she would always see this kind of six months. Of like, the she having gotten here as some of the honeymoon period would learn off. It's also a time where your English learning somewhat plateaus like, you know, you're just can't absorb quite as much vocabulary quite as quickly. The grammar gets harder, whatever it is. And so it can kind of become somewhat of a metaphor to how your adjustment maybe is going in. And, you know, for older folks, especially like, they can Feel extremely isolated or dependent on family members who are learning English quickly. You know, you get a lot of these stories of kids who end up interpreting for their parents and their grandparents because there's no other option which is also, you know, I'm an emotional experience for the children. So I mean, I think like, that's some, there's some real success stories ooff There's, you know it is challenging had again came with the words. Thank you. And that was probably it. And now, his English is pretty good and he's become this kind of like star student in the class showing other students hook up, their Google Calendar or whatever. Again another, it's someone who didn't have a computer, you know, like and so, there are real success, stories that are exciting. But it's also, it's a little Bittersweet when clients come with fluent English, and you see how much farther they can get that much more quickly. And that's, that's a really, it's a draw of the And if they had the opportunity to have an education and education in English. So I mean that's wonderful for them. But sometimes you're like I mean that's not fair but it is what it is. Yeah. And do you think that because kids come in with a bit more, I mean, most of the time though they're not like the kids don't know English at all right?

00:45:26.400 - 00:47:13.300

Yeah, kids kids generally don't because they wouldn't have time like we had time to learn it but you know, the younger you are the easier. It is, I mean and that point for English. There are a lot of things that age gives you and language is not, it's not one of them. So that, I mean that's always amazing. Like most kids pick it up, so within a year they're not even some of them like forget their mother tongues, Yeah. You know, I mean like and it's a total 360 unless someone has, you know, we do have a few folks who had to be in a special education or, you know, like different developmental disabilities. And that obviously is a very different animal, but overall that, I think that can also be frustrating for the parents. But at the same time, I mean, almost every Refugee parent would say, like I came from children. I mean, we had a family who are like, I liked Malawi, where we were living. They were from the Congo, like there are a lot of things that are really difficult, but I came for my children, like they have future here, especially like having legal documentation. I worked with another family who I'm very close with from Eritrea who lived in Israel for nine years. So we spoke in Hebrew, um and I mean, the parents really miss Israel in a lot of ways, I think, in some ways they have a bigger community there, even though they have a couple of family members here, but I mean, the access to having the status and now applying for green cards and having like a fully documented future. I mean that makes a huge difference.

00:47:13.700 - 00:50:24.550

Ya, no that completely and is and I guess I want to, you know, understand also what, you know, going off of that in your work and what are some of the challenges that specifically in social work? What what are some challenges that you have faced and is there a, is there a story on some of the challenges that working with refugees and in social work that or a challenge? I mean, any immigrant population is statistically more prone to some kind of trauma or mental health. Like just the kind of shock of immigrating so add on to that immigrating because of traumatic reasons, right? I mean talking about a population with the huge exposure to trauma. Huge likelihood to develop traumatic symptoms. I say it that way because some people they come and they adjust pretty well overall. I mean, you can't expect everyone like can't say that everyone has trauma and is going to struggle, but obviously that's a huge, you know, a huge issue. Just getting people connected to whatever, mental health support. They need is a Herculean effort, partly, because of stigma in different countries, partly. Because if people do want mental health support, but that someone, you know, provider doesn't want to work with the language line or there aren't enough people willing to work with the language line who take Medicaid. Like I mean, the building blocks can just stack and And and they think that that's a big and the other one I would say, which is somewhat more related to the work I do now for the state government. you know, people just not knowing how to work with immigrants, whether phobia I think more often it's like people just have never thought about working with somewhat speak their language more so than like oh you should learn English. I mean, we do get that but I took someone for a WIC women interview in my first week of my social work internship. So I was like, you know, bright-eyed bushy-tailed intern as Congolese family to get them, WIC benefits and they Spoke Swahili and the woman registering them was like do you speak Swahili? And I was like, no, like you need to get me interpretation. And she was like, what do you mean? I was like, well don't you have a language line? Like you know, that's a pretty standard thing. So anyway, hope I've worked here for 40 years, I'm retiring next week and I didn't know we had access to a language line. Like, come on. Wow, that's Yeah.

00:50:26.200 - 00:53:18.300

And how did you feel when you heard that did you just push her more on that and push her to, you know, get access to that language line or did you do something else? Yeah, I think in that situation, and then she, it was kind of quick as a weird program. Like, there's there's a lot going on and it again, it was like my first weekend in turn when I got more experience. Yes. I push her language. Lime is actually public services are required to have it any provider who accepts blurs is provide, like, required to provide free interpretation. I have like fought on the phone to the doctor's, you know, so like I've got I've gotten much better at kind of advocating for that and so, but I think that moment I was just kind of like, she'll like, I was like, how do I know this? And you don't know. Like, that's crazy. And so I think now, I work it's thinking about how do you just get be educate people about what you know, language access and all these different experiences? Yeah, and do you think that there is that common? Do you find that common in your work that people don't know about the language resources and other resources as well? But do you find that something that's relatively prevalent usually. I mean I think that's an extreme case and like most people who work in some kind of Provider or you know know that there is a kind of some some access to language line, right? But I think the very big Spectrum you find a lot of people who don't people with a phone interpreter and so they're speaking really fast. And the interpretation is not really working and they're getting flustered and takes an hour to figure out how can you, you know, make this less frustrating for you and less frustrating for the client. I mean, and I think like you can imagine I'm from Afghanistan, people see, kind of Arabic like scripts, people think they speak Arabic people think that they're this or that, you know, like there's just so many assumptions that we make moving through life all the time that as ideally as children were educated to learn how many different experiences there are. But, of course, we learned that as adults. And I think that's the part of the work with refugees that I like of kind of, how can you bring this attention and just try to really think about all the different experiences that are surrounding you in these communities? I don't know if I answered your question.

00:53:18.900 - 00:59:33.300

Yeah, no I think that makes sense. I think that that's a very It's a very, it's very complicated to address the whole. Yeah, I can't imagine it sounds very challenging and do you think that I guess I want to circle back to the religion and I want to transition a bit towards religion, you know, for you but in your work and with Refugees and I want to ask you like, is there a, do you feel like there's room for religious groups to, you know, is there currently a large amount of religious groups working? With refugees and in your experience and what do you think about you sort of Grassroots organizations versus you know, State organizations like in your experience? Well, there's a huge amount of religious organizations working with refugees. I mean, that's kind of the most beautiful part, is that Refugee resettlement in as has started, as it has religious communities, helping refugees, I mean, there are nine, big agencies that receive the Federal in to do this work and they subcontract with their local field offices and their other guy. Through this organizations six of them are religious in origin, some more religious than others and kind of how they operate now. Like church World Service. I think so religious as much whereas like the Catholic Bishops conference is very Catholic but they do this work and those agencies are called voluntary agencies because they used to do this for free because it was the right thing to do, and then in 1980. You know, they signed the refugee act which also interestingly was introduced under Carter but signed by Reagan to say, okay we're going to give you funding, we want to do this and you guys are already doing this. So keep doing it. Like we're not going to invent the program and that's, you know, how all these religious organizations are receiving all this Federal funding to do this work. So There would not be Refugee work in the its organizations and that is what's really beautiful and challenges. This is actually the exact to I smiled because this is the topic I worked on in my first job, I worked at Princeton University's office of religious life, thinking about the intersection of religion and refugees and all its capacity is. And so like this, it's my first Passion and the field in some senses Um, and I mean, in the same way this work cannot be done without regress Roots organizations, the amount of Manpower and commitment and expertise. You need in the community to successfully resettle people. You can't just have bureaucrats doing that ring. You like it's just that it's not novel thing, but you do need the structural support. I mean, I wouldn't want the government to not support this program. It's important. You know, value statement and like investment of our funds that we do but they couldn't do it without the Grassroots. And so I think there is a place for everyone in it and sometimes it's more about figuring out which places who's right? Like what do we leave to experience? Service providers were just receiving versus sets to make structural change, within the more and more difficult and Political. But that is important, ultimately. Yeah, and do you find yourself? Now do you find in your work with the government that you work a lot with these religious groups or other groups, for refugees that are nonprofits? Do you find that? There's I mean Glee. Sorry. Alag. Yeah, I mean we have to like these are the community members. These are the service providers. It is fully part of our mandate but even Church World Service in Jersey City, has this contract and so we work with them on a contractual basis. If you are trying to reach out to the Haitian community in South Jersey, you need to find Haitian pastor, who works with people because they don't care about me. I was speaking, I don't look like them. I don't know anything about their lives. Like that's not, you know, I can put out flyers and that's a great we have to outreach and and for some communities, not every Community. Those are religious leaders, trusted religious leaders and so that Grassroots way. Yeah, we have to do that work. I mean, I think that some of the ideas of the separation of church and state, are like, it's laughable to think because we're all people who live between some kind of church and state. Not everyone lives within a church, we all live within a state. And so, like, yes, you shouldn't have certain religious endorsements from the state. I'm not saying that, but like, I mean, of course, we have to work with religious groups because they're the ones who are going to reach the people like, you can, you know, it's all a salad.

00:59:34.900 - 01:03:31.700

Definitely its. Yeah. I'm sure you have to be and it sounds like you're very good at bringing people together and really getting getting all these different organizations together. That's what it sounds like. So uh. I've tried I've had some some experience. I'm sure you did. Yes it sounds like you have and I guess I had one question about how does How did your first job you talked about that and I was just curious a little more about that if you could tell sort of how that informed some of the work that you do right now in the government? Yeah I mean that job informed so much and it was such a formative experience I will so it's this incredibly like vibrant creative office of like Chaplin's doing cool work. And so, in some ways on a personal level, it gave, it made me understand that I am a person who believes in these issues in a theological standpoint and so that kind of imbues everything I do. And then you know, besides giving me all these skills that I now use all the time and kind of government work. Like I think it helped me think about like how do you you know do slow policy work. I worked a kind of at liaised with a lot of policymakers and then also with a lot of Grassroots activists and you know folks and how different that work is, how important it both is but how they kind of need to work in concert to, to make the whole thing work. And, you know, I think that was a really important lesson to me that like again, there, everyone has an important role to play, and it's figuring out what makes sense for you and why. And, as I said on that journey, and you can hear how many different and I don't know if I've landed in my final, you know, I doubt it. So, I mean like I think as it starts kind of from me of like. And, you know, I believe in welcoming people, I believe in building, stronger Equitable, diverse in every bit of the best sense of the word communities. And I can go to sleep at night knowing that I believe in that every day and I wake up tomorrow and do my little, you know, tend to my little piece of the garden that's part of that puzzle, I will believe in it tomorrow. And I think that I'm, you know, I'm somewhat religious and Judaism is important to me, and I'm part of a Shabbat community. And I'm also in an Interfaith marriage, which is, you know, a whole other topic of conversation. But my, my husband is South Indian. He's Hindu and we very much like respect both of our religions and our families, and everyone on board. But you know, like I have an interesting to say the least like relationship with religion, all that's in that Ebbs and flows as well. And I think I was more devout in certain religious ways a few years ago than I am now. But ultimately, kind of, if I believe in the Divine, the Divine loves everyone, oh, that's the work I want is like to engage in that.

01:03:31.700 - 01:06:39.000

Yeah no, and that's really interesting your what you said there, I am curious. Just one last question I have is, you know, so would you say that your work with or your experience with religion has you know informed a lot of your work with refugees? Would you say that that's one of the main? Or would you just say it's your the way you were brought up and a lot of the other things you were talking about but I'm just curious if that was one of them? Yeah it's definitely both. I mean, it's both but in different ways because when I told my parents when I was 11, I came home from Hebrew school and I said something about believing in God and like, my dad's jaw hit the floor. And he was like, we sent you to Hebrew school to learn about your, you know, like Very funny, you know, they're very accepting now but it was an adjustment so kind of moving through the world as a person of Faith who is also, you know, an intellectual. Well that's all like a journey I took on as kind of an adult, not from the model of my parents where, as being a very socially engaged person is much more from the Way I am the model of my parents, so like, it's not that they're at odds with each other. But they're very different. I mean, you can imagine someone who did Refugee resettlement volunteering as a kid with their parent, the church like that. Come that, that pairing comes more naturally. Whereas for me it was these, you know, all these different parts being a kind of citizen of the Middle East. And for me that means that I, you know, care about people of the Middle East all of them. That's part of my uh Upbringing. But then I became very engaged with Muslim Jewish dialogue and in college, and that was a really meaningful part of my education. And so that something I kind of, definitely. I mean, my understanding and acceptance of Islam, and Muslims is time back, but I use it in my work every day, you know, will so educate others about how to work, you know, Muslim refugees etcetera. So. Yeah. No, that definitely. That's a, that's a really great answer. And I, is there anything else that you'd like to add, or any questions that I should have asked? No, this was wonderful. I mean, you can tell now I could talk forever about this stuff. I really but guided the conversation beautifully. I mean I you I can't think of anything else. Like there's so many other things I would want to stay, but it's not one. Cuz it's a lifetime of work and I'm appreciate you listening.

01:06:39.500 - 01:07:33.300

No and I appreciate you telling and thank you so much for talking and giving all this insight. And I I really I think your work is so important and just I'm you know this but your work is truly so important and I am so grateful that you shared your story and were able to give such Detail and I find the your relationship between the way that you grew up and you know, your work and I just I find that all so fascinating and I think it just connects so well. So I really appreciate you telling me that thank you. Well, thank you for your time and very much, appreciate it. Yeah, please please. Stay in touch.