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All right, so it is October 25, 2020. I am in Dallas; you are in Fort Worth. This is an interview with the Mia Moss. Do I have permission to record this interview?. Yes, Perfect. Okay, so we'll just start off with an easy one. Where are you from originally? I am originally from Wichita Falls, but I grew up pretty much in Fort Worth most of my life.

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Okay. When did you move here to Fort Worth? So I was really young, probably like three. But we would go back and forth since you know, it's not that far. Nice to have family there. So pretty much, you know, my entire whole life has been in Fort Worth. Okay, any particular part of Fort Worth? Any neighborhoods or anything like that? Yes. So the east side, mostly. I grew up right close to where we are located, where Black Coffee is located. So just right down the street off of Vaughan and Barry.

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Okay, and how do you think growing up in East Fort Worth, like, affected your upbringing? Um, honestly, life was kind of hard. But my mother was very good at, you know, making sure that she provided opportunities for us. Things that, you know, even my, even my older siblings really didn't get a chance to do. I was in Montessori School at a young age. Then I went on to a magnet High School. And I mean, it showed me there definitely was a difference, because I will go to school on the west side of Fort Worth, but I lived on the East side. So I did definitely see a difference in the way my friends grew up versus the way I grew up, the way the neighborhood looked. Um, lots of those things. So I mean, I was... I was able to see both sides. Um, but honestly, you know, I wasn't, you know, bitter about it. It just showed me, clearly, the differences in the quality of life on both sides of town. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so did you live with, as you mentioned, older siblings and your mother? Was that kind of a like your household? Yes, so um, there's kind of an age gap. My older sister was 13 years older than me, my brother, 11 years older. And then my sister right above me was just five years. So that's who I really grew up with. I was the middle sister. So when I was in like middle school, she was almost out of high school, you know. But, yeah, we grew up together. And then it was just my mom. And my mom worked a lot, but she was always, you know, at school functions, and they participate in a lot of things. We went to church, so we would do a lot of things in church on the weekends. So, you know, my mom was still very present. And then, yeah, I had my older sister.

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Were you a very, like, would you describe yourself as a close-knit family? Yes, definitely. Um, yeah, I mean, we, you know, we only had each other so, yeah, like, that's who I relied on, I could call my mom for anything. I could call my sister. We're still very close right now, and she lives in Michigan now! But me and my sister are still very, very close. So we talk all the time. Oh, that that's good. I, especially with big age gaps. I'm always wondering, like, because I have a little sister and she is three years younger. I feel like that's such a good manageable age gap. When I meet people that have a very big age gap between siblings, I'm always curious to see like, how that affects their experiences of being a kid because almost like two different childhoods separately. Yeah, definitely. There was, there was a separation, but we still, you know, managed to, like hang out together and make sure that we did things together also.

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Any specific like, family traditions or things like that y'all do together? We cooked a lot together. So she, she taught me how to make spaghetti. You know, which is one of the first things you start out making. But yeah, any, especially around the holidays, we would cook with my mom. And another thing we like to do was go to Six Flags. That was like a big thing. She would she would let me tag on every now and then um with her and my older cousins. So that was fun. I didn't always get to go but she didn't let me go sometimes [laughing]. No, that's awesome. What did your mom do for a living? So my mom, which is so funny, my mom went from being in OR Tech at Wichita General Hospital to working for the U.S. Postal Service.

00:05:03.180 - 00:05:52.680

Wow. And she worked there for 25 years. Yeah. It was fun though. I remember growing up, when I was in school we had take your daughter to work day. So I would get to go with her to work. And so I'd be in the post office. And it was just another world like, first you see all this mail coming through, then you have all types of people working there for different backgrounds, but they were like a really big family. So everyone knew each other. And then I would see them for like football games when my mom would host a football party, I would get to see them. So it was like a really nice, close-knit family. That's wonderful. That is, that is a drastic job switch, though. Was there a particular reason that she found herself wanting to do that? I think because she wanted to come back to Fort Worth.

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Is she originally from Fort Worth as well? Yes, she grew up on the south side of Fort Worth. And my grandfather was a pastor. Okay. And so he grew up here their entire life, her and my uncle moved to Wichita Falls and that's where she worked at the hospital. And, I think she just was ready to come back home. And they had an opening. And so she was like, I'll take it.

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Yeah, no, I completely understand that. Um, yeah. So, transitioning back to school life. You said that you went to Montessori? Was that just for elementary? Or was that K through 12? or What was your education, like? Um, it was elementary through middle school. So all the way up to eighth grade. I was a delegate Montessori. And then from there, I went to O.D. Wyatt (High School) because it had a magnet program. I was there for two years. And then they got rid of the magnet program. So I transferred to Southwest High School. And that's another example of the quality of life. You know, we had the magnet program on the east side. And it was kind of the south side, but they got rid of it. And, you know, all of a sudden school just wasn't that great anymore. So I had to go over to the west side, where I will get a better education. Right. Did you - moving around, especially moving schools so much, it's something that I had to do in my past as well. Do you think that you gleaned a lot from it? Was it more of a challenge? Or was it beneficial in the end to you? It was a challenge. I bet we could see some benefits. Just because again, the education was better. The teachers cared a little bit more. The teachers were treated a lot better; the PTA was better. And they just got a lot more support, even from the district at that time. They got a lot more support at the schools on the west side. But it was tough, because you know, I'm black, and going into, you know, Southwest, which was predominantly white at the time. It was just a shock.

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Right. And I did, I had a tough time with people. I wanted to be a cheerleader. So, I tried out for the cheerleading squad and I made it, but I was treated really, really badly. And it was just a horrible experience. And it wasn't until I stopped being a cheerleader, which I did it for a year at Southwest and after that. I was able to kind of connect with, you know, more black students that were at the school once I stopped being a cheerleader. And, um, yeah, it was, I always look back and I'm like, you know, high school just wasn't a great time. Um, fortunately, when I was in Montessori, the diversity was much better, like you had people from all different types of backgrounds, and everyone can connected really well. I'm still friends with a lot of people from elementary and middle school now. Um, but yeah, high school was just really, really hard. And there was not a lot of support for the black students at the school at that time. at the school at that time. What were some of the I know you mentioned, like, the issues you had with cheerleading and kind of the racism involved with that, but like, what were some of the, like, unique challenges that you felt as being a black student and predominately white high school at the time? Um, I mean, some, sometimes it is, you know, a mental thing of where you know, you're already coming in; kids, no matter if you're black or white, you know, there's, there's an awkwardness just in being a teenager. And so, you come in and you're already kind of, you know, feeling alone. You know, again, I'm having to make new friends. I'm in a new environment. And I immediately noticed there were time that has come into the store because some of the teachers were just, I didn't want to give me an A when I deserved an A, you know, mainly just because I was black. Yeah.

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It's, that is so tough to hear. Do you feel like that those experiences hampered your education? Or were you able to you - do you feel like you were able to persevere despite the adversity you faced and still get a lot from your education? I think it did hamper my education a little bit because I was not excited to further my education. After high school, I was exhausted. I was drained. Um, I went to TCC [Tarrant County College] first, no, I'm sorry, I went to UTA [University of Texas at Arlington] first. And then I transferred to TCC. Just because I wasn't ready to have to deal with so many people again, you know, all at once. So, I ended up going to TCC. I'm just so I could, you know, kind of have some alone time to myself, but I just wasn’t, and I feel like I missed out on a lot of things. Because of that. You know, I was kind of shell shocked. When I went into UTA; it was big, I'm like, Okay, now I have to deal with making more friends or, you know, trying to fit in again. And so, yeah, I just end up saying, Okay, this is not for me. Let me go to TTC you know, do something a little bit smaller. Um, so yeah, I mean, it definitely messed me up when it came to education because I just was not excited to keep going. Oh, no, I completely understand that. Despite all the tough challenges you had with your education, was there like a favorite subject you had in high school or anything from school that really stuck with you today? Yes, um, English was my favorite subject. It came easy. I love reading. And we got to read a lot of different plays. It really helped me find my love for Broadway and the theater. Even now, I love theater. If I ever get a chance to go and, I'm always trying to go. I was fortunate enough to even see Hamilton before COVID when it was in Dallas, and I got to go, and it was just amazing. Um, but yeah, that's where I found my love for the theater. And I just really enjoyed it. So yeah, I mean, English, that that still comes easy to me like, I have kids, so I'm able to help my son with English. And I still enjoy it.

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Yeah, no, absolutely. That was one of my favorite subjects as well. And then my little sister is actually a theater major and is in so many plays and musicals every year. So, I'm definitely more well versed than I think I would have naturally had him but it's such a, it's such a wonderful world to kind of like find yourself in. So that's, that's wonderful. Well, so that kind of seems like a very varied educational experience, so how did you end up into the coffee world and just being an entrepreneur? So, my first job when I graduated from high school was at Seattle's best coffee, which was the big coffee chain before Starbucks became what it is now. And we had one at the airport. And my friend was like, "well, they're hiring at the airport, we can get a job there". So, I was like, cool, that's fine. And I did and from that job, I just realized that coffee just made it easy to talk to people. Um, it brought out some things like I told you, I had problems with like, you know, just making friends in college. But when I was at work, I didn't have any problems talking to people. Um, I made a lot of friends, just from making them coffee. I loved it. I fell in love with it. And I stayed there for about two years, and then they were eventually bought out by Starbucks. And before they switched over, completely I left and had to take care of my mother. But after that, like I just found myself you know, even going to Starbucks and going to different coffee shops, finding local coffee shops to go to and that's something that my husband and myself would do. Once I got married, we would just travel, and we would find local coffee shops to go to. It to me just was a very peaceful place. Anytime I was going to a local coffee shop. I just felt like it was home like I was comfortable there. And so, I just realized here when we were going to local coffee shops in Fort Worth, we would have to get on the freeway just to get to a local coffee shop. Like this is local, but it's not. I would talk to some friends and tell them like I do want to have a coffee shop on the East side. And they were like you should just do it. Just figure it out. Do it. I was like okay, I actually researched and found a coffee school in Portland, Oregon. And I went there two years in a row and learned everything I could about the business. Things I didn't know as a barista and got home and just started writing my business plan. yeah, it was like, it just came so easy for me. I knew that it was the right thing to do. Yeah. So when did you start at Seattle's best? What year? That was? Oh, so long ago. 2003. Yeah, so I was there until 2005, um, up there in age.

00:15:46.000 - 00:18:45.470

I mean, that's still very recent, in the grand scheme of becoming your own, an adult worker, and establishing yourself in the business realm. That's still very recent, especially, to go from working at the airport to then owning your own business. So, did you always feel that you wanted to own a business, especially when you were younger? Did you see yourself becoming an entrepreneur? I did not, I have always been the person to assist other people in making their dreams happen, or, you know, if they need anything, I have a friend that has a barber shop, and she hired me, you know, just to help her to organize, to just do anything she needed, that I saw that I needed some help with certain things. What I noticed is when you're creative, sometimes you're all over the place, and you need help, in just, you know, having structure and so I helped her for a few years. My husband is an entrepreneur, I help him still now. And he's, he makes custom suits. So, he's really creative also. So, I thought that that was just what I would do, I would just help other people. And I was fine with that. But I mean, I really didn't know that coffee would be, you know, something that would be very passionate about until I actually dove in. No, absolutely. How did you find the coffee school in Portland? What was that process of finding it and then getting admitted like? So, it's really easy, because they specialize in helping to -- well, helping people build their coffee brand, and, you know, all the way down to finding a building to helping with your human resources side. So, you know, their thing is, if you want to do it, we're going to help you. There's not a lengthy process and getting, you know, into their school. Because they just want to know that you're passionate about it, and they'll help you get where you're trying to go. It was really just a Google search. I was like, I have to find a place. And I want it to be somewhere where coffee is, you know, their specialty, you know, the Northwest. That's what they're known for. They're known for coffee. So that's where I started looking. I just started looking in that area. And I found the school and they actually have their own shop called Water Avenue Coffee. And it's a father-son [business]. They have a school right above the coffee shop. The dad has been in coffee for over 30 years now. Yeah, and he's on multiple shops and even works with some shops in Italy. And it's like super passionate about coffee. And they were the best decision I ever made. And it was perfect timing.

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Did you have to move to Portland for-- to go to school? Or was it online? No. No. So yeah, um, most of it was online. I went there for two weeks. Okay. And most of it was online. And it was just like that. It was simple. If I had any questions, I could call and get help immediately. And they provided me with everything that I needed. So, that's why I say it's perfect timing, because now it is super expensive. You don't get as much as I did when I was in school. Just because you know, coffee is a big thing now.

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Right. It's all the rage. And so, it was perfect timing for me to go and my husband was super supportive. And he was like, you know, we'll get you there, whatever you need. And, yeah, it was just perfect. Yeah. What year did you finish coffee school? It was 2017.

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Okay. Relatively recently. Yeah. When did you, kind of go back to the family side? You mentioned your husband, being an entrepreneur and being a very big part of your life, especially being supportive for your business ventures and things like that. When did y'all meet? I've been knowing him since my sophomore year of high school.

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Wow. Yeah. Were you high school sweethearts, or we did it was something that kind of, uh, we went to high school together and it developed?

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So, he actually went to high school with my cousin. And we didn't actually start dating until he was a sophomore in college. I was-I had just graduated more in college. And so that's when we started dating. And we were off and on, because we were still young. So, we were off for a while. And we didn't actually get married until 2013. Okay, what was um, did you see yourself getting married when you were younger? And how does how does being married affect you as like a person, things like that? Honestly, I thought that I might get married, but I wasn't sold on it completely. Um, and it has stretched me a lot in good ways, though. Because I've always been thinking about myself, you know, I'm like, I'm going to do this, or I'm going to do that. I'm going to live here; I'm going to do whatever I want to do. And then you know, being married definitely forces you to think about someone beside yourself, to think about their needs and their wants. It really teaches you a lot about just any kind of relationship. You learn a lot in your marriage, how to treat people, how to respond to certain things, and just what it's like to have someone that supports you, and that you support at the same time. So, I mean, it's really great being married and, you know, it's just like having your, you know, you have your partner, your best friend, you know, everything wrapped in one. And while it may be difficult, you know, when you're wearing different hats, it's just great to know that you have somebody that's going to be there for the long haul. Absolutely. How does having a family of your own... kind of, does it change how you look back in your upbringing as a family? Now that you kind of see the flip side of having children?

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Oh, yes. I don't even know how my mom did it, honestly [laughing]. I don't know. But um, I just, I'm able to look back and be like, you know what, she was so patient with me. When I get like, so upset at my kids. I'm like, my mom was patient. Especially with my younger son; my oldest son, he's 11 and he is just a sweetheart. My five-year-old is, I don't even know, [laughing] hard, but he is a handful. And I'm like, I was like him when I was younger. I guess it's being the youngest makes you go crazy. And I'm like, my mom was so patient. I don't remember her yelling at me. I don't remember her, like really getting on to me, she just let me be a kid and, like, experience life in my own way. And so I see how important it is to let your kids ask questions, to let them learn things on their own. You know, and kind of just let them be, you know, as much as possible so that they can learn and have their own experiences and not, you know, necessarily impose my own beliefs on them for every single thing. And, and I can be controlling at times and be like, "No, you should do it this way". It's like, okay, just let him if he's gonna try to tie the shoe, let them do it however he wants to do it, just leave him alone. So yeah, I always look back and I'm like, Okay, I need to be more like my mom, because she was a single parent and she had way more patience than I have now, and there's two of us {laughs]. So, yeah, I'm just like, she was great. Yeah [laughs]. Is there something about being a parent that you feel like really transitions well into being a business owner as well? Like, you're talking about patience and things like that...are there other aspects like that transition into your professional life? Oh, absolutely. I'm learning to show grace a lot with my employees, with customers. It really is one of those things like it says, it's more of like a mirror image when you're dealing with people kind of look at yourself and be like, you know, when I go to Target, you know, I might, you know, be asking crazy questions or bother somebody. And it's like, I have to think of myself as the customer when I'm dealing with the customer. And I think of myself as the employee when I'm dealing with an employee and just, you know, be gracious and being nice and, you know, not expect people to be exactly like me. You know, and just be nice. Yeah, absolutely. I think being nice to people as well for running a business for sure.

00:25:06.140 - 00:27:50.160

Oh, yeah. So kind of like talking, I was thinking about your education and how you talked about how your experiences of being black in a predominantly white school affected you; correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like the coffee industry, especially here in DFW is on the top-- pretty white in a lot of ways. Was that something that was a bit of a barrier for you kind of entering the field? Did you feel that way about it? Not at first. I kind of was just, you know, doing it. And then, you know, it's funny that you know, you-- you're going through life, and you're getting things done, and then other people bring things to your attention that you didn't even think about. And it's like, I just want to do coffee, I love coffee, and they're like, "oh, but you're the only black person doing it". Like, okay, you know, cool. I think that's great. You know, I'm breaking barriers, in a sense, but sometimes you just want to be a person and just do things without having to worry about that. But, unfortunately, you know, that is the life that we live in. It's one of those things where it wasn't necessarily a bad thing that they brought that to my attention, because it did show me where I may have not been taken seriously in some aspects with other coffee shop owners. And also, other, you know, there's some coffee shop owners that, you know, helped me, because they understood that, hey, you know, you, you are the only black person and some people don't like that. And if we can be of service in any way, let us know. So, you know, while it's like, I mean, we have labels. And, you know, unfortunately, it is what it is, it's something I'm proud of, you know. I'm black, I love myself, I love who I am. And, you know, I'm an example for other black women or young black girls, for my kids, you know, to show them like, it doesn't matter, you know, you're black, but you can do whatever you want to do. And, you know, it's… it's one of those things where, you know, it is what it is. I take on the mantle, whatever it may be, and just keep moving forward. Right. When-- so, now, I kind of want to get like Black Coffee specific. When did you decide to open up? You're like "alright, after graduating from school in 2017, now I'm really going to do this". What was the moment for you?

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I mean, I think it was just continual. I never stopped, you know, once I was done with school, um, I started doing my business plan. I had some friends that, you know, were like, Hey, we can help you with the business plan, if you need any help. I was like, hold and I was like, Okay, how much funding do I need? What I need to do on that side of building? It was kind of just a continual process. I never stopped. I tell a lot of people like; I believe I was on autopilot. Because had I thought about it too much, it wouldn't not be open right now. Like, Black Coffee would not exist because, you know, there's just so many things that could stop you. But I was, yeah, I was just on autopilot. And I continue to go, I never stop. So, I just built on the momentum that already had and kept going. Yeah, it was just like, in 2017, I was doing my-- my business plan. 2018 I was looking for a building. At the end of or at the beginning of 2019. I was, you know, finishing getting all the funding that I needed for the building. And yeah, it was just a continual process. I never stopped. That does sound like quite the grind [both laugh]. Being on autopilot definitely sounds like it was actually very beneficial for that. Yes. How do-- how did you decide on the name Black Coffee? Is there meaning behind it and something that you wanted to say with it?

00:29:23.910 - 00:32:56.800

Yes, so um, I bounced a few names off of some close friends of ours. And Black Coffee kind of just came out of nowhere, and it was one of our really close friends. He just kind of spit it out. And I was like, "wait I was like, that means so much". And he was like "you can have it, it’s free" [laughs]. I was like yeah, because that means so much because, you know, again, I'm black. I'm like, that's a play on it. Also, Black Coffee, the first thing I thought is that's where you start with coffee no matter what you do. Whether it's an espresso shot, it is black. Whether it's a pour over, it's black. Drip coffee is black. And so, the start of coffee is always black. So that's the start. And to me, again, going back to how you can build relationships by just, you know, sitting and drinking coffee with someone, it's the start of a relationship; It is the start of a conversation. And so, I was just like, this is perfect for what I'm trying to convey. And it was the start of something new on the East side. So, it was just perfect. No, that actually ties well-- right into the next question because I was going to talk to you about how on your website, you say that Black Coffee has an exclusive East side culture, and that there are no coffee shops in east Fort Worth prior to opening. And I know that you mentioned that you wanted to give back to the community that way. But, when--how did you find your building? And what was that process like of looking at a neighborhood that you grew up in, and then be like, oh, like, as a business owner, I'm trying to locate? What was that like for you? Um, I mean, that also came pretty easy, because it was, you know, I already knew where I wanted to be. I want to be on the East side. And so many people will shy away from that, because they're like, "Oh, you can be in an up and coming neighborhood" or, "you know, you can be downtown, you could be somewhere that's already established". But I knew what I wanted because I wanted people to, you know, drive two minutes, three minutes or walk to get a cup of coffee. And so, looking on this side of town, you know, it was just easy. We have a friend that is a realtor, and he was like, I'm gonna pull up buildings, we're gonna look and see what we come up with. And there's a gentleman named David Howard, he owns quite a few properties on the East side, he's from the East side, as well. And he is very interested in building up the East side and showing other people that live on this side of town the value, which is what I wanted to do, as well. Show the value in the community. So, he showed us to one of his, one of his suites, that's right in front of Texas Wesleyan. And we looked at it and we were just talking, and I was telling him my vision. And he was like, "Well, I have another property you might be interested in". And it was just around the corner. So, we walked over. And as soon as we saw it, it was just perfect. And then it didn't look good. It was an old diner that I remember being open. Everyone knew the building. But they had painted it brown, it had a little graffiti on it. So, it… I mean, it didn't look like much, but it was just perfect. Soon as we saw it, we knew like this is it. And he was like, "I think you'll really like it; I'll work with you guys.” You know, because he didn't even put it up for sale yet. So, he was like, you know, "I'll sell it to you guys". Wow.

00:32:57.130 - 00:35:00.330

And so it just worked out. Yeah, that's incredible. What was the um-- what was it like to kind of like renovate a space for that - for your vision? What was that process like for you? It was, it was a headache. Um, you know, we, I think that was, that's what took the most time is the renovations, because contractors. I mean, that's, that's a tough job to have. But it's also tough to deal with contractors. And it took quite a few of my friends, my husband, just to get them to do what they promised to do, what they were contracted to do. And, um, I mean, we just knew what we wanted, I knew what I wanted. And I just wanted to make sure that I could bring the vision to life. I wanted it to be just what the East side is known for. It's a nice spot. I also wanted it to be of a certain quality, because I didn't want to just throw something up. Unfortunately, on this side of town were used to like restaurants and stores kind of being subpar. And I didn't want that. I wanted it to be nice. And I wanted people to feel like we have the same quality of coffee shop that the west side has or, you know, South Main. I just wanted them to have something nice that they could call their own. Like, you know, this is my, this is my community. This is my coffee shop. That's what I wanted. So, I mean, it was tough, and we were still having to do a few things here and there. But I mean, we're fairly new, so I figured that would be the case. But yeah, like people come in here and they love this setting. They love the music. They love the staff. I mean, it is just nice. It's like I really get excited when people tell me that they really love coming in here. It's definitely a beautiful building and he did a wonderful job.

00:35:00.510 - 00:36:42.190

Thank you. Um, now that you're open, what are some of the biggest like day to day challenges that you face as the owner? I mean, we opened in November last year. So, you know, who would think that something like COVID would hit, and we went down to weekends for months. We were just weekends only, curbside only. Um, so I felt like that was the biggest challenge ever is still being able to operate, stay open, keep my staff. Um, I think, you know, I feel like as a business owner, right now, during this season, I haven't experienced what normal coffee shop owners have, you know, experienced on a daily, I feel like, we're, we still haven't gotten there yet, because of the pandemic. Um, but you know, you just want to make sure that everyone's happy. And you can't always make sure everyone's happy, you know. There are a lot of sacrifices, there are a lot of sacrifices. But ultimately, I have a great staff. And I don't have a lot of issues. So, you know, when customers are unhappy, they try to, you know, make it right. Um, you know, when I'm not able to be here, I'm fully confident in their abilities. So, I mean, I just, I'm thankful that that is the case. Um, but yeah, I'm like, I know, I still have other things that I have to worry about. But I haven't gotten there yet. Because, you know, we're in a pandemic, right now. We're just trying to navigate those waters.

00:36:42.420 - 00:38:03.180

Oh, absolutely. And I do want to dive more in depth into some of the pandemic questions. But just to backtrack a little bit, what is, if you had to, like, summarize it, like, what does it mean to be a black business owner in Texas to you? It means a lot. It's, it's scary, I'm not gonna lie. It is scary. You just have it looming over you, like, you know, am I going to be accepted? Or I'm going to be taken seriously by other entrepreneurs? And the community is diverse. And I'm just like, you know, is everyone going to want to come here? Is it going to be acceptable to everyone because I don't discriminate? I don't discriminate. And I want this to be a place that everyone in the community can come to. Um, it's just, I mean, it's, it's the south, we're still in the south. The South has a reputation. And, you know, I've tried to just keep pressing forward, and, you know, be the best Mia that I can be, and, and hope that it is perceived that way. You know? Absolutely. Yeah.

00:38:03.000 - 00:40:25.060

What advice would you give an up and coming African American entrepreneur looking to establish themselves, either in the coffee business, but just kind of in business in general, like, is there any specific advice from your experience, you would give? Definitely to be confident in themselves. You know, to get your vision across, you have to be confident, and it has to show and when you believe in yourself, others will believe in you. And, you know, I learned that firsthand when I was looking for investors, that, you know, I was confident. I knew what I wanted. And they could see that I was passionate about it, that I was serious. And that's all that matters, is if you believe in yourself and others will believe in you and not to focus on the what is but just focus on the task at hand. Because no matter what, like you're gonna have, things come up. You're gonna have, you know, issues maybe with customers, issues with vendors, different things will happen. Some people are not gonna like it, some people are not - they're not going to like that you are a proud entrepreneur. Some people don't want to see that. But that's, it doesn't matter. It's you being confident and you doing what you love to do. And you bringing your creativity, you know, out into the world, community to see because we are, we are showing the future basically, what they need to do. Like, you know, it's important that they see people like them, kids and people like them, do what they love to do. Right. Like being a role model. Absolutely, and it's one of those things as I was going through the process, I realized I'm like, "Hey, this is what I want". But at the same time, I'm showing other kids, like, you know, right now you're in school, but it's not the end of the world. Like, you have so much more life to live, and you want to make sure that you're able to do what you want to do. And so, I just, yeah, I just remembered that it's not all about me. And that helps me to keep going.

00:40:26.620 - 00:42:40.500

Do you have -- that is wonderful advice. Would there be any specific advice for handling racial discrimination that you encounter as a business owner? I, you know, I tried to address people as individuals. Um, and we did have an incident where some people came in, and they're just like, Well, okay, because I, my staff is diverse. No, everyone's not black. Um, they're diverse. And so, there's an incident where someone came in and thought they were being treated unfairly because they were black. I was like, "no, that's not the case". My staff is very good at following direction, you know, and they follow me. I don't treat people a certain way because of the color of their skin. And they understand that that's just not acceptable. Right. And, again, I'm fortunate enough to have staff that, that they're just not like that. They're genuinely very nice people. I just had to explain to them like, "No, you know, they're just following instructions that I'm giving". And it doesn't matter what color you are. And, you know, everything boils down to respect, I had to let them know, like, we respect that customers, we just ask that you respect us in return. We've never had an incident where they yelled at customers or gotten into arguments with customers, you know. And in that moment, I just had to let them know, like, you know, they're not singling you out in any way by any rule that we have in the shop. And you know, it, I was able to calm the person down. But when it comes to racial issues, I don't shy away from who I am, but I also respect other people for who they are. If anything, you just have to respect people and understand that we're all different no matter what it is, whether it's gender, you know, sexuality, whatever it is, everyone is different. And it should be celebrated and respected.

00:42:41.260 - 00:45:01.920

Absolutely. Um kind of on the flip side, I feel like something that definitely bringing us all together is this pandemic, that we're all kind of living through. What, especially since you were-- the business was so new, when the news started to break in about March when things were really starting to shut down, what was that like when Coronavirus was really starting to become a big deal here in Texas? It was very interesting. I just remember them saying, you know, the kids aren't coming back to school next week. And that same week, it was like, no one was in the shop. It was just me, by myself, in the shop, no customers, no employees, and I was just like, "what is going on?" It was just really confusing. And so, for a few days, I just kind of was in the shop by myself trying to figure out, am I gonna have to close? What can I do? And I just after two days, I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna go to weekends. Luckily, I had already put in a curbside door that I was going to use for Texas Wesleyan students, you know, in the middle of class, they could come and grab a drink, and go straight back to campus. Right. I just made that just curbside for everyone. Like, you don't have to get out of your car, we'll bring it to you, you can order online, or you can call with an order. And I rotated the staff. You know, we just started Sunday, I rotated the staff, I also started a virtual tip jar for them on GoFundMe to make sure that they were taken care of because I just didn't want to lay anybody off. I just kind of went into survival mode. And I've had experience with that going up again, in single parent home. We didn't always have everything. I just knew how to make it. I just went into survival mode and was like, Okay, this is what we're going to do. Because I know that if I close my doors completely, then I probably wouldn't open back up. I didn't want that to happen. I had a great vendor. Most of my vendors, you know, of course had to stop dropping things off and printing things but I have one vendor that worked with me and even brought things to my house so that I could bring them to the shop which kept me going because I don't know what I’d do if they'd stop delivering to me.

00:45:03.390 - 00:46:13.050

That's incredible. It sounds like a community effort and just kind of keeping everybody afloat. Absolutely. Yeah. When you - I know that it seems like you had a very close relationship with your staff, was it a priority for you to try to keep everybody on and try not to have layoffs or anything like that when Coronavirus set in? Absolutely. Because, you know, at the time, no one knew what was going to happen. They hadn't even started talking about the stimulus package. I just didn't, I knew everyone needed money, everyone needed to be able to live and I didn't want them to be laid off. And, you know, possibly be denied employment, or whatever the case was, I just wanted to make sure they had a job. And it just wasn't an option for me to lay anybody off, I was just going to make it work. It was great because we had already established a few regulars. And they would come in and they would tip crazy amounts of money, just to take care of the staff. And we were just really blessed, again, by the community.

00:46:13.950 - 00:49:37.000

That's, that's wonderful. Did you have-- when the government shut down the economy, except for essential businesses, did you kind of have conflicting feelings about that as a person living through a pandemic, but also, as a business owner running a business during a pandemic? How did that make you feel? Um, I mean, I just, I don't know, if I was conflicted. I of course, worried about everyone's safety, and everyone being healthy. Like that, it would be like one person here, I immediately gave them instructions on wearing gloves at all times, making sure they have masks on, you know, just being very, very clean. And just trying to make sure everyone was safe. My family, my in-laws, they're a lot older. I wanted to make sure that we kept away from them for a while to make sure they were good. And, you know, just kept my family at home. I was really the only person kind of going out of the house. And again, it was only a couple of days a week. But I really just wanted to make sure everybody was safe out, you know, very afraid, like everyone else to get someone sick. So, you know, I didn't leave the coffee shop. And then, you know, I would just be at home. The staff, everyone was at home, they're very open with me. So, you know, we're all transparent about what's going on in our household, you know, in case, you know, anything happened. Um, and a lot of people were just at home, no one was really working, except my staff. So, yeah, we, you know, we just make sure we communicated well with each other. And yeah. Absolutely. I, it's, I can't even imagine the challenges that you kind of have to face just running a business through this. Were you hesitant when the kind of the state began to reopen with, especially like, inside and outside seating and things like that, where people could get more exposed, were you hesitant yourself as a business to let people inside? Or have more people occupy the space? How did that feel? Yeah, I was. I was hesitant to say the least. I just was, like, you know, I still took my time. I didn't force it. I didn't just open everything back up. Because again, I wanted to make sure that we were not the cause of anyone being sick. And so even when they opened up, we still did curbside for the most part as the first option. And then I got a couple of outside tables for people that wanted to sit outside. And we just kept the inside closed for a while longer. And we slowly eased into, like, I took out quite a few tables and chairs, and we only had like, three, now we have four so still limited and it gives based on the size also because according to the rules, you know, in order to be at 75%, which I think is the most right now, um, we would have to be a little bit larger. Because to keep everyone six feet apart.

00:49:37.180 - 00:50:25.400

Right. And we're not able to do that if we add any more tables and chairs. So yeah, I just, which I'm fine with because I never wanted to be, you know, in case where there's so many people in here and then there's an outbreak or anything like that. Right. Yeah, it's just and I think, you know, once you lay out the rules for everyone, and they understand that, you know, this is just the way it is, they'll go for it. Like it's okay to have rules and boundaries. I think that's what we're really learning in the pandemic, and how to deal with rules and boundaries. Because that's hard for a lot of people. When you ensure people that this is, you know, this is not just to impose a rule on you to make sure that you're good, that I'm good, that my family's good, your family's, most people are okay with it.

00:50:26.570 - 00:52:10.040

Absolutely. Is there--how do you feel, um, the coronavirus affected, like the East Fort Worth community? Is there anything that you've noticed, like, positive in a way that it was uplifting, like, when you were kind of struggling as a business, but then on the flip side, has there been some, like, issues that you are really concerned about because of the virus in the neighborhood? What I noticed immediately was that always, we always pulled together. The East side is known for gathering together. we immediately you know, started getting food together for those who couldn't get it. Having people drop off food on, you know, fortune, for those that couldn't get out. That was automatic. So, we're known for that on the East side. We always come together; we always make sure that people are good. But the flip side was when people were having to have groceries delivered, get food delivered, um, you know, our options are limited. right. You don't have a lot of healthy options on this side of town. And it really showed at that time, because it's like, you have Favor but you can't get a salad. You can't get Chipotle, you can't get, you know, some just some healthier options. They weren't available for us. You know, you McDonald's, Taco Bell, just crazy. things that we don't need to eat on a regular basis. And so that was very noticeable and... kind of sad. Even the stores just the options, we don't have a Whole Foods, we don't have a Central Market.

00:52:10.040 - 00:52:45.310

right. Now, the closest we have is Walmart. And it's like, okay, now you notice what we really need on the side of town. And so, you know, they'll do things that I like to bring to people's attention. It's like, okay, we don't have a healthy grocery store, not even a small grocery store that has healthy options. So that's something we need to work on. Yeah, it was just, it's like, you know, I want to send somebody food, but I don't want to send them Whataburger. Right. Yeah.

00:52:48.750 - 00:54:27.370

I understand. And kind of another thing that was going on, when the pandemic was really starting to settle in was the, like, resurgence of the Black Lives Matter movement nationally. When you think of BLM, what's the first thing that comes to your mind? I mean, to me, it's a statement that, first of all, I shouldn't have to be said but, it does. It's just one of those things that were just telling you that we're important. I just think black people are important, that's the first thing that comes to mind. And I mean, I'm grateful for my community and the people that I have around me, because I didn't have to have any awkward conversations with people. Because we all understood what the movement was about. Even my white friends understood, they, they stood with us, they made sure that they had those tough conversations with their friends and their family. And I appreciated that a lot. And I understand that's not the case for everyone. So, you know, I just, I was ready to have some conversations if I had to. but, even with my staff, they brought it up to me to let me know, like, you know, they were having to have some conversation with people about Black Lives Matter. And I've been really blessed in that area to have people around me that understand that that phrase doesn't take away from who they are. Right. It just shows the importance of who we are.

00:54:28.360 - 00:54:51.130

Absolutely. Is-- have you been involved with social justice movements and just social justice in general your entire life, or is this kind of like something new for you? Actually, being involved is new for me. okay. I wasn't very involved in a lot of things growing up.

00:54:51.160 - 00:55:49.830

Right. Besides, you know, like I said, I went to church, involved in church. I was a cheerleader, you know, different things... I played a few sports. But as far as social justice, I had never really been a part of anything. So yeah, it is new for me to be involved and actually speaking about those things. I mean, for a long time, I didn't even think that I would be the person to speak about anything or to even have those conversations. You know, sometimes you just, you feel like, you're just not important enough to talk about these things with people too. But I think 2020 has helped us to understand that every single individual is important and every little conversation that we have is important. Right. Yes. So yeah, it's been a lot easier for me to be involved. Because, again, I understand that, yeah, we're all important. And we all have to work together to make things better,

00:55:50.020 - 00:56:43.220

Right. Why do you think that the black lives matter messaging is really starting to resonate with so many Americans now in 2020? II think, because we were forced to sit down, and to really sit with our thoughts. It just made people understand, Oh, my gosh, like a long time, this country has just been kind of running and going without realizing that they've been hurting a lot of people. Right. And, yeah, the country's just been moving along. And everyone was forced to sit down, forced to think about things. And I think a lot of people just came to the realization like, hey, the way we've been running this country and the way we've been doing things is just not right. It doesn't serve everyone. And we are supposed to be a country that for the people. But we haven't been acting that way.

00:56:46.090 - 00:58:00.590

Do you feel like these kinds of narratives around Black lives matter now are different than Black social movements in the past, specifically, like with the murder of Trayvon Martin, and things like that? Do you feel like there's a difference? Or is it just kind of a continuation of the same movements? I think it was a continuation. Think that the pandemic is really forcing people to really see it. You know, we're continuing on with life, and you know, someone dies, and we're like, Well, you know, the police kill people of all colors, or, you know, that's Black on Black crime, or whatever the excuse is, I think the pandemic helped us to see that, you know, it's not the same. It's disproportionate, you know, it just forced us to really see it that way. Absolutely. Did you take part in any protests during the whole months in the summer? So, um, we did go downtown, and my husband went to quite a few. I mainly stay with the kids because we didn't want them out. Because again, we still have to worry about if they were going to be sick or not.

00:58:00.620 - 01:01:15.350

right. But I still allowed as much as possible the coffee shop to be used for whatever was needed. If it was to bring awareness by putting out a flyer, bring things to people, whatever it was, I allowed this would be a space where people could come and they could talk about issues, or do whatever they need to do to get the word out. You know, at the coffee shop. Were there any specific methods of advocacy that you use the coffee shop for-- you mentioned flyers and things of that, were there any of them that you felt very personally connected with as like you were very proud that Black Coffee was the vehicle for doing this? There were a few things. One, through social media, we were able to participate in a movement where it was different women, there were white women that would give Black women a voice. And what they would do is basically allow that Black woman to speak through their social media. And so, we were able to partner with Craftwork coffee, and I talked with Katherine Morris, who's over there, human resources. And basically, they use their platform to allow Black Coffee, you know, as the Black woman that I am, and talk about the hardships of being a Black woman in America. That one that was really... I was really proud of that because it allowed me to build a relationship with another coffee shop. Because I've always said that I don't see any coffee shop and competition because I still go visit other coffee shops. I think it's a different experience when you go to each coffee shop. And so I thought that it was great for them to open up their social media to allow me to speak because that meant that they thought the same thing that I wasn't competition but, you know, I'm a sister coffee shop, like we're in this together. And so that really just-- I was just super happy about that. And it just helped me to form relationships with people that I probably wouldn't have had that not happened. I also was able to help Enough is Enough in Fort Worth, they do a lot of things like right now they're collecting coats for the homeless, and they're able to drop off here. When they did some protesting for Atatiana Jefferson, I allowed them to, you know, leave flyers; they come in, they speak to people. Um, you know, and everyone's really, really nice. And... I mean, we haven't had any problems, I think conversations have gone really well. And, again, coffees just, it makes it easier for people to talk. And I've heard hard conversations being had in the coffee shop, since all of this happened. And so, you know, whether I'm doing something big or even something small, like allowing people to sit and have a conversation, I'm proud of it. Because, you know, had we not been open, maybe it wouldn't have happened.

01:01:16.130 - 01:03:25.810

Right. Does that make you proud as a business owner to know that your business is allowing for those hard conversations? Absolutely, yeah, I'm kind of floored, like, I just can't believe that, you know, we're here, we're open. And, you know, a lot of people would shy away from it, you know, especially when it comes to their business. But I opened this with the community in mind. And I can't, you know, leave the community behind just to make a dollar. It's like, I either have to be all in or all out. And I'm all in when it comes to, you know, having the tough conversations, helping other people. I mean, I just have to be, so many people have helped me in life. And I just want to be able to do that. Even if it means losing a customer or two. Right. That's very, that's very powerful. And I know that I know, in the aftermath of George Floyd's murder on May 25, there was a big social media push in the next following weeks to support local Black businesses, a lot of sites here in Dallas and Fort Worth, were really pushing for people to go out and support Black businesses. Did you see - did that affect your business in any way? It did. It was a huge blessing for us. I mean, we saw people from all over, we have people come all the way from Houston, just check out Black Coffee. Yeah, we have people from Oklahoma come. Just all over. It was amazing. It, it was needed, it was necessary, not just for our business just but for, for Black people to feel accepted, you know, as entrepreneurs and business owners, and it just gave us an opportunity to show people you know, what we can do when you come and patronize our business. And it was just great. It was incredible. We couldn't believe it. So many people came out and we and again, they were very respectful of our rules and our you know, guidelines pertaining to COVID. It's still worked out really well.

01:03:26.560 - 01:04:57.940

Did you feel like you have been able to retain that interest as well from some of your customers? or do you feel like it's kind of like tapered off a little bit in the last couple of months? It has tapered off just a little bit, which was expected. But we have been able to retain some of those customers. And we're still growing, we still are getting the word out and getting new customers like every day, which is wonderful to me. I always want new people to come in. So, we can, you know, talk to them about our coffee and how wonderful we think it is. But yeah, it tapered off a little bit. But you know, it's still there. People are still coming in. Right. In, I feel like your community engagement is something that you've been striving for with this business like wanting to give back to the community. And I know that recently you did have the host of the campaign with I Ride with BayBay and a meet, like events like that. Why is it so important for Black Coffee to be the place for like a launching pad for so many events like that for East Fort Worth? Just, I mean, I just don't get to see those things happening that often where people my age or younger, are involved. And I think I think our location is just perfect to get younger people involved. You know, you can do things at a community center. Most of them are really old buildings, kind of like rundown. It's hard to get younger people in the community centers, but it's easy to get them to meet you for a cup of coffee,

01:04:57.970 - 01:06:13.600

right or you know just, you know, for anything for a soda or whatever, but it's easier to get people younger involved at a place like Black Coffee. And so, I think it's just whatever I can do, you know, if we can be available to host those kinds of events, then we're up for it. Do you feel like it's necessary to be politically engaged as a professional business owner? Yes, yeah, definitely. Because, um, I mean, if I were a corporate business, you know, it might not be such a big deal. But I'm a small business, I'm in this community. And it's because of them that I'm able to stay open. And I have to, you know, kind of be abreast of what's going on; what affects this part of town. How the people feel about whatever is affecting thing as part of town, and just show them that I care. I have to show people I feel like it's, it's, even though I live in this community, it's one of those things I've just, when you open a business in a community, you’re kind of like a guest in their house.

01:06:13.600 - 01:07:09.410

right. So that's the way I look at it, you’re guests in their house, you come in, and you show respect by, you know, listening, having conversations, and just whatever their custom is, that's what you come in doing. Because I'm a guest in their house, I want to make sure that I'm doing things the right way. Absolutely. Do you feel like it's possible to be black and not political in today's climate? I mean, I think you can, you can be, it's really tough because you, I think we just like our parents and our grandparents, we owe it to the next generation to make sure they get what they deserve. And that is equality, equity. And, I mean, it's, it's just hard to kind of sit back and let things be,

01:07:09.710 - 01:07:42.800

right. I just feel like, yeah, it's an obligation to be involved in, you know, in whatever ways you can do that. You don't you don't have to be loud about it. You don't you know, it's just about being involved and keeping up with what's going on. And then just making sure that we make it a little bit easier for the next generation. Right. Does that make this upcoming presidential election feel more important to you than past ones? Yes, and no.

01:07:43.010 - 01:09:14.770

Okay. I feel like I feel like every presidential election is important. But I also feel like the local elections are even more important. Take the Supreme Court nominee, Amy Barrett. Basically, [she] has said that laws are made by law makers and whatever that law is, she's basically going to stick with that. And we know that lawmakers come up with anything. Exactly. I mean, that's why we had a Roe v. Wade, you know, court ruling or court hearing at all. And so it's one of those things of, well, since you know, you're going to have someone like that on the Supreme Court, the highest court in the land, then you want to make sure that you have right people in place to make laws that benefit everyone, and not just their own interest. And so, you know, every year as I get further and further in my voting, career--because it is a career [both laugh], but as I get further and further along in that, I just, I just realized how important it is to make sure that I'm paying attention to the local election: the judges in this area, the mayor, you know, my city council person. you have to really pay attention to what they're doing and voting for the right people because they're going to make the big difference.

01:09:14.980 - 01:11:45.010

Right. Absolutely. The local election - I used to work kind of in local politics. So, I definitely agree with you. I'm very big into the whole like you got to be locally involved and locally engaged, just to see to see bene - just to see the changes at the local level is so powerful. Um so what are - to just kind of wrap it up like what is the most impactful way this past year has changed you? We'll start with personally. How do you feel like personally this past year has really impacted you? It has stretched me so far out of my comfort zone. It's crazy. I opened up a coffee shop, but I'm a very introverted person [laughs]. I like to be at home. I'm fine like Just being alone, and not seeing people for a while. It takes a lot out of me sometimes, but at work, it's just not that bad. Like, I love what I do. And is it stretched me to think outside of myself and be uncomfortable sometimes. You know, just for the greater good. basically. again, we've had so many... so many things happen this year, and to be talking about social injustice, to be-- to have a business during a pandemic, there's so many uncomfortable conversations that I've had to have. But I've been able to have them, which is big for me. And so yeah, I'm proud that I can say that I've done the work, and I'm still doing the work and I'm ready to continue doing the work. It's - that's big for me. Absolutely, and has the-- has 2020 had any lasting impact on how you run your business or just being a business owner? I'm definitely just being careful. I'm really being meticulous about cleaning, um about sanitizing, about protecting my customers and my staff. And also, being open to different ways of, you know, doing this coffee thing. We've had to really rely on technology, which I didn't necessarily think about too much in the beginning. it was in the back of my mind, like, I'm going to eventually have to do some online ordering and things like that. But this pandemic kind of pushed us into that a little faster than I thought.

01:11:45.250 - 01:12:36.540

Okay I just had to be flexible. I've learned to be more flexible and to continue to be more flexible going forward. So yeah, I think, yeah, that's the biggest thing for me, is just being flexible. I understand that. And so, what's next for you? and Black Coffee in the year? What goals do you have for the future? Oh, goals. Again, it's to, to really build my online presence. To get more Black Coffee into the hands of people around the US. That's a big goal for me and to start planning for another location, hopefully, in another community that, you know, is similar to the East side.

01:12:37.290 - 01:13:11.580

Do you have any ideas of communities that you're kind of looking for in your mind? Yeah, I'm definitely looking maybe like the Forest Hill area, I think. And even out in - I've talked to some people about probably Dallas, but I'm so partial to Fort Worth, I just want to make sure the other communities in Fort Worth are, you know, well taken care of. I understand that. Well, lastly Mia, are there any other questions that I should have asked you? No, you asked some good questions!

01:13:12.960 - 01:13:41.580

Thank you. I appreciate that. And I thank you for taking the time to interview today. I know it was kind of hectic trying to get this scheduled, but I really enjoyed talking with you. And just it's been very informative, listening to your insight, just owning a business, being Black and all the interconnection between the two, especially during these crazy times. So, I just really, really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you. I appreciate you. This was fun. No problem.