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It is November 12th 2019 and this is an interview of Rafael Zapata off by sharing. With me a brief introduction of who you are. My name is a raffaele's Cepeda and I came to Washington d.c. in 1977. And my entire professional experience has been as a social worker with the Bureau of Rehabilitation The Latin American Youth Center

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and the Development Corporation of Columbia Heights. I've also was one of the individuals who started what today is called the Columbia Heights, educational campus, which is a high school here in the district, with about over 1,300 students. We started that school with 17 staff people and 40 students. And today, like I'm saying, It has over, you know, thousand students, they were in a 68 million dollar building, we started that school with seven classrooms at Murray read. We were kind of like a, the first Venture into bilingual education in this country. And so after 30 years, the school is thriving. And I'm just, that's one of the things in my personal background, that I'm very proud of having been a part of because we do schools. Whole Focus was to Educate immigrant students that were coming here in the 80s or Indian immigrant young, men and women who were being placed in a special ed classes because the school system was not prepared to deal with these individuals who spoke very little English. And therefore, the bilingual high school was created to meet the needs of these individuals and so, 31 years later, as I'm saying they were in a 68 million dollar building and it's a project. Checked. That's just

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thriving. What brought you to do that work in Washington d.c., I came to do. Hello at the time that I started with the bilingual High School. I was offered a job to be the director of the Upward Bound program at Georgetown University, the Upward Bound program, was a program that was focused on identifying minority students who showed a lot of academic promise, so that they could then spend a year at Georgetown to It's what it is to be in a University. At the same time, the bilingual high school was being was being formulated and I was offered a job. And so I had to make a decision whether I was going to go as the Director of Upward Bound or being a part of this new venture to bilingual education. And I chose the latter simply because I saw that the need was a lot greater students do very well. Minority students in particular, Euler who do very well, a highly

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coveted, by by their teachers and Educators these. These young people are going to do well, irrespective of the kinds of support or lack of support. They'll receive whereas at the violin will High School, the students are needed a lot of help because not only were they dealing with the issue of Education, they were dealing with the issue of culture shock. Jacques and I also was conducting groups acculturation groups every, every week to discuss the kind of

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emotional the emotional. The emotional difficulties. They were having a justing to a new country and so the whole focus of the groups that I I was having this was like group therapy was to deal with these issues so that they wouldn't impede their focus and their ability to perform academically. But we had to also

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address those issues of this major transition of coming from El Salvador and never knowing what a winter is. Or dealing out in a Multicultural Society. You know where there, no black people in El Salvador or Costa Rica, there are, but not at the level that you would have here and the diversity of individuals, so that for these students, it just wasn't about learning a language and being educated in a specific specific language. It was all that came with coming to a new country

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as an immigrant and dealing with an environment that you're totally alien. Two. I think we want to start off by kind of contextualizing the park a little bit. So do you remember the first time that you came to the park? Yeah. The first time I came to the to the park, as you know, that there's a drum circle and I've been here 40 more years as of this past September. So when I came here, I grew up in New York my group. I came here from Puerto Rico many years ago, we arrived. I'm in New York around 1946 and then I came here in 77, but growing up in New York, you exposed to music to theater to so many different things. And if you're, if you're Latino, you're going to know how to play some kind of

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instrument. So there was always people, you know, jamming and what have you? And when I came here, I heard about the drum circle. So naturally, I just kind of gravitated. Towards these these events that were taking place every weekend and that was the first thing that Drew me here because they were other musicians, they were other people that you had a lot in common with and kind of you know, you were dealing with it. This is a very conservative City. So you were dealing with people who were either deal with people who were artists or musicians, it was a kind of a totally different mainly that Then you would find you that you would generally find their 16,000 lawyers in d.c. You know, and so talking about in a city that's less than seven hundred thousand. Individuals living hero, maybe a bit more. These days,

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the group of people that were coming out to these drum circle, events, have a lot in common because they were, they were very, very different from the average person you become in contact with, and these were people who were involved, not only with music, but in literature and the Arts and what have you and then The diversity of individuals. So you came to us to you came to an environment where there was a lot of commonality with people that you had never met before and it was easy to cultivate

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relationships because of this event that took place and was established in this park. And I think a lot of people who have come here from other places have been drawn and it made friends and out of that has grown other kinds of, you know, Working. But it started in the park. Doesn't necessarily mean that you're a musician and that's what you do for a living. But you do you know have access to make contact with a lot of different kinds of people that perhaps in your everyday life you may not be able to have that kind of contact on me that type of individual. Do you remember who told you or how you learned that they had the drum circle there? Yeah, friends of mine that I people knew that I was always writing songs, but I did never devote myself to that exclusively.

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So people that I knew that will musicians. I don't want to go into a deep history of how I came into the music scene here, but it was a an individual named Glenn

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crock. Well, who told me about the drum circle and Glenn cross Rockwell had a, he had a group was, and it was called Glenn Croc world and the world Community Orchestra and they were like sound a lot like Earth, Wind and Fire and so Glenn. And I started writing songs and he was the one who then said, hey you should come out on Sundays to the to the park and then he introduced me to a lot of other people and out of that, you know, I've been coming to the park for four decades now. And it's different people because this is a very transient City. So there's a lot of different folks that have come through that drum circle. And, you know, I play a lot of tennis and on those tennis courts on 18th and

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Columbia Road. A lot of people who come through they're doing, you know, the past four decades. And so it's been the same thing with the drum circle. You know, a lot of different people have come through the drum circle and have moved out of the city and there's always other Folks, to replace that, those individuals. So what you have right now, as a result of the gentrification, you have more white individuals involved but of these individuals seem to be a lot more relaxed about who they are. And a lot more willing to engage with individuals that perhaps they may not have had a lot

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of exposure to. And so I think therein lies, the beauty of that drunk. That individuals who have no, whose faces have not been seen and this activity and now heavily presented a represented. And so, that's, that's how I came into contact and Woody people in as part of the drum circle. It had to

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do with my friend, Glenn Cromwell who was my collaborator, how did it feel to find that space in the city that maybe? Yeah, it was, it was a terrific Outlet. Simply because again, as I'm saying this so much commonality with the individuals that are there and a lot of networking also emerges, because you just not carrying on playing, you know, people go there to look, to listen, you talk to people, some of you playing, somebody might want to speak to you. So I'm sure that a lot of people have made a lot of contacts. Out of this particular activity that has

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taken place every Sunday. Because so for so many years I just the thing about coming and they are on Sundays. It was just like being in New York City because in New York City, in the Latino Community Everybody Plays because that's just an inherent part of the culture there. You know, so if you want, I'm in New York City, they were three major league. Baseball teams the Brooklyn Dodgers. The New York Giants and the New York Yankees. All of those teams with the exception of the Yankees left, the Brooklyn Dodgers went to Los Angeles. The, the New York Giants went to San Francisco. So he grew up in a city and people aspire to be ballplayers you grow up in the city who were there's so much music in your household and How out of your household exposed to so much music, people aspire to be musicians because these are things that like I'm saying this. So so part and

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parcel of the the nature and cultural aspect of the community. And so coming here, it was just kind of like just a natural step to move in there and play, because I'm also a percussionist. So that was a great outlet for me too. Find that here then so close to

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home, because I've lived in this neighborhood for the past 41 years. So I've always been here so to see what's going on now. It's kind of a, it's a bit disconcerting but back then and throughout its history, the drum circle, like I'm saying that it has been a place of information, a place to network a place to cultivate relationships with people that you may

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not otherwise meet so there's just not Latinos. There's Africans. The Jamaicans getting their people from a variety of cultures. Cultures, who this one activities? Brings all these different individuals to to play together? Talk together, eat together and share parts of what their culture is all about. And so therein lies the the beauty that you can have such diversity

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and such commonality coming out at the same time. Do you remember when you I first came to the park. If there were certain, like, spaces in the park that you're a particularly I think that where the fountain is, yeah, I think because of the Aesthetics of, that whole area, that people would gravitate to that part of the park. And also, you know, one time you had people from Central America, from Jamaica, from Africa, playing

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soccer all day long on that open field in the park. I mean, that was just Just as common every weekend as a drum circle was, so you had people who made them not known know how to speak English playing soccer with Africans and Jamaicans another Latinos, you know, from Central America and it was it was beautiful. And then the these particularly, the Latinos would bring their families and they will bring food and their kids will be playing while Dad was playing soccer. The kids would be in another part. The department or not too far away with the mother doing whatever to entertain their kids. So it took on more of a family activity that an individual activity, that the dad goes out and play soccer than he comes back home. Now, the whole family comes out and again, those kinds of things just solidify, you know, the integration of families. And so that was another thing that that you just don't see anymore. That is gone.

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gone as a result of the the gentrification, because when you come out here on a weekend, I mean, if and you cannot talk about the history of this part, as I was talking to you on the phone, when I was talking to you on the phone, you cannot talk about the history without talking about the gentrification because as I was saying to you, I

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I think that What all of the people that lived, you know, with in such close proximity to this problem who are no longer here. What did this part representative that and since since in so many instances, African-American families, don't get out to the country in the woods or Trail going on trail and Vicodins and doing what is this thing that people do on weekend hiking? I must you know, I grew up in a big city and I've always lived in.

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City. So that has never been something that I've been growing to as much as and I have friends who like to go like to go out and to do what they call this, what they go out to the camping. Yeah, I can't. And I just, that's not my cup of tea dealing with experience. So I say that to say that the park representing the space, With in such close proximity. That was an open space. Perhaps people, they might be six, seven people living in a one-bedroom or two-bedroom apartment. So, in the summer is hot as it is in this city. When people would step out of their Apartments, where would they gravitate

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to the park? But these same individuals are not here any longer. And so I think that's the the travesty in all of this and that's where I think so many stories exist of those people who grew up with that, part of the who might have been taking their taken, to the park as children, and a grew up the to be to adulthood and still utilize the part. This is all, you know, the gentrification has started in 1982 on 18th Street when they started really Paving the streets. And so street from 82, but it didn't really accelerate until the mid-90s to where we are right now. So gradually these families were

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removed out. And so, as I'm saying, if you couldn't take your family to Rock Creek Park for whatever reason and you lived on Belmont or you lived on Fairmont You just walk up the street names hot and DC. Do you know you bring some food and bring some music and people like to carry on and and it was an outlet was an open space that no longer exist for these individuals. But that was critical. As I'm saying to the daily lives of those individuals that were here before because they were not going to go out into Virginia or Maryland and getting a car and go on bike trails and Go camping because that was just so sure economically. It didn't lend itself to

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that. So you know what? Open-air space do? You have you have to park? That's right, the street and I don't want to believe it the point but I guess it is a richness. I'm sure in the stories that people and diversity of stories

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that people have to tell if there was one where there was a way that you could connect to these people but I think it's It's just difficult. So you have to talk to the people who experienced student to bring information to you because it's hard to find these individuals. Where do they go?

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Yeah, and you mentioned, so you, we mentioned that in some of our previous conversation, the connections between Parks and Rec mental health, and how having a space like that can just like you're saying right now really influence how someone experiences their everyday life. And I think something you're kind of connecting is how that in itself is kind of like a pull litical and an activist statement. Yeah. Is there anything else you want to say about that? Because I think that thinking of recreation, as that kind of important, social action is really is really different than what we've heard so far. You know, how the interested in what you you've heard, you know. So when I, I think I mentioned something to you about how people and this is just a personal

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observation. You could, you know, they're people just walking the streets with mental health issues throughout the greater DC area. And and seemingly you don't see people Who have mental health problems? In isolated places,

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they are always were lots of folks congregate with his. A lot of people activity by the trains, by with commercial districts. And when they pull away from that, they'll pull away to the park. Because then that's a different kind of space. And one thing that and I don't have even noticed this. Like I think even with these benches here to prevent people from sleeping in the park, the way they designed the benches, it doesn't allow you to fully stretch because in the middle of the bent, there's another

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armrest, right? But the park has always been kind of a place of Refuge for individuals who Who had you have mental health problems. And I think one of the places where you might have to see, this is what we refer to in Spanish as pigeon Park. Write down, Harvard and 16th Street you've been by

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there. I think so. Yeah. And if you've been here long enough, you know, it's almost like the various individuals who have these mental health issues, who are almost part of the community that they don't. You'll see them every day. They're not bothering anyone they were off to themselves but generally the parts have always served as a place of

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Refuge. Judge and I think that, at one time, this was not the most desirable part to be walking into, there's a lot of homosexual activity, that was taking place on the lower part moving towards 15 Street. I think I told you that I had a friend, whose mother had a house right across the street from the park. And he would tell me it was a place for a lot of homosexual activity. Taking place. It was Drug Act to they was a lot of very negative kinds of activities in the park,

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but because this was happening with minorities, I don't think that a lot of attention was put towards policing and, and having a presence to kind of They wasn't a police presence to prevent all of this negative stuff that was going on in the park. And I'm talking about the lower part of where the

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fountain is. And, and so, when you come down from the upper part with Joan of Arc is and you go down them steps. There's a places where these days people are sunbathing. Well, my friend would just see all this stuff going on and you know, they would fast and burglar. I mean Not very good. People were wronged. And so a lot of these 60s I think, is a lot of negative things going on in the park yet and still it was a partner was being

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utilized. Despite that this happened at night, right? During the day, beautiful in the evening,

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a lot of counterproductive Behavior was going on. There. And I don't think that a lot of people might recall that but because I had a friend who lived there and actually saw it. I don't know how many people Baird witness to what was going on in the

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Park. Yeah, we've talked with some people but it's always in vague terms. So it's hard to find people who like really know much about it. It's more of a general. Like, folks are saying, like, we were just told not to go there at night. Yeah. So it's interesting that you You. Yeah I mean back then that was like a Haven to homosexual individuals to meet and do whatever they were going to do with who with whatever Partners they were with her soliciting or what have you. I mean that was just their people because there's a predominantly minority neighborhood. It was just one other one other aspect of the year of the neighborhood that people were aware of. It's just like if you see where people congregate to drink, Carrion or to gamble. So, that's just one thing. You people go over there every night and play dice. Okay, these people go around here and do this in the evening. And so, it's just part of the community. So, it's nothing that's so disturbing that impacts your life. Is this one part of what goes on in this neighborhood, but it's not having an impact on my life and I don't feel threatened by it. And and because it's not being policed because it's not being curtailed by the authorities. It continued you know with as freely as a people felt going into that parking doing whatever despite the fact that there was a certain level of crime, taking place, Yes it was like Central Park in New York partly. You know, at one time people said, don't go to, you know, Central Park in the 70s had a very bad reputation but all of that is changed. Just like, you know, the park has changed as the as the

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population and the different types of individual start moving into the community, everything changes. So the lighting improved in

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the park, right? So it So we're all in all of these nefarious stuff was taking place, it was in the dark. The park used to be dark, that's no longer like that. You know, the streets have been improved. The only thing that hasn't been improved as the actual part because the deterioration is at such a level that is disturbing. It is to me is very

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disturbing because when would it was built, I'm sure in its Heyday, it must have been just a just A place where you would want to be had if you see if you, when you step down and I don't know how much traveling you've done through the park but you know, that they have some, they have lights, they have these benches that were built in and then they had light. So at night, you might see this part lit up where people could sit out by that, by that waterfall. I mean, they just so many components, you know, to the

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park. Architect really that Wow, Dave seen it when it was like I say in its Heyday, it had to be, you know, aesthetically very powerful impact on people. You wanted it just drew you

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in, you know, these days, you know, the park is just needs so much repair and it's been like that. It's almost like it's it's been abandoned in a manner of speaking because this just, the deterioration just didn't start two years ago. This has been Goin out with quite some time. And I would have thought that perhaps at this stage of the game, because gentle fires are always looking to improve something to accommodate their particular needs and wants and desires. That they would have like, take we want to see this part restored to its, you know, original Beauty and these organizations have performed and we're doing fundraisers. I don't see a lot of that happening simply because I don't see. It manifested in the condition of the park and it's not just that it started. It's not like the park has been like that, you know, over the last couple of years, it's been a

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while, it's been more than a couple of years. So it seems like nobody's been paying attention to this deterioration is like we cannot let you know this part just died. It's a beautiful space and people go there and do whatever they going to do. But if you really start to live with a finite, hi, and the different dimensions, and the different components of the place. You see the deterioration and sadly, I mean, it's really sad because it is such a beautiful part. you know, and I think having that right in the middle of all of these Neighbors, You have this wonderful space here for families. I mean this is for everyone to enjoy. And so to see what's going on, it's kind of surprising to me that the parks department has not said, we have this wonderful place up there. Meridian Hill soaked. All

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we have to do something about that. You know, it seems that this kind of focus and attention has not been brought to bear on doing the necessary repairs and has this beautiful facility. I know that a woman named Gwen that I've spoken with said that she always felt like the parks and folks weren't willing to clean it up because it was used by so many people of color and used by African Americans in the community. Do you see, do you agree with that kind of assessment it? I see it relating to then you thinking it should be. Now that Ginger factors are using it but I wonder if you see that perspective at all. Could you just repeat what you He said, if I think the so she mentioned that, she thinks that the park was neglected because it was primarily used by people. Yeah, I mean II, totally would agree perhaps that perhaps it has not been ignored for that reason, but as easily as easy to, to have this perception, that if these individuals are using, you know, other ones we using The park. Why do it? Because it's they're going to District. You know, they get destroyed again. And so why invest in time and money and

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effort in doing whatever repairs needs to be done with the part? When we may end up in the same situation, 34 years, and I'm I Won't Say I'm almost certain that that has been one consideration, but I know that that's probably one view that has been taken that perhaps curtail any foe. Focus that may have been,

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you know, considered in repairing part because historically around the neighborhood has been generally an African-American community. So I think the best evidence of this is to see all the repairs that have been done on the sidewalks over the last eight years or so. So, and even a little further back, you know, even 12 years ago,

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like all of these streets have been, you know, repaired repaid. But we've been here and none of that was happening. While this was a full-fledged minority Community. I'm telling you, that none of these things were being done, until the impact of gentrification. The amount of money I mean developers doing and don't invest millions of dollars for people to be living on streets that need

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painting on streets that need better lighting. You know there's a greater police presence to protect the individuals and here. Now that wasn't the same back in the 80s. You know, they were drug Corridor was right off, right? In this neighborhood. I mean, were they might have had like five or six different individuals

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selling weed. So all the people who work in the federal government who live in, Maryland will come down to their particular individual and pick up weed for their friends because your ended City and will give me a bag, you know? And so if you would go down Champlain Street, it was one think they was a A particular name that they had for these places but you could come with your car and the people would be lined up there. Now, why was why was that

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happening? And why wasn't a stop put to all this this type of activity because it was minorities involved in this. It wasn't that the police was trying to discourage people from doing this or resting individuals for going there tomorrow. And there's a particular name that they had for this

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kind of activity where you had. It wasn't so much, a drug Corridor but it was another name and it was all over this. I was on Columbia Road, it wasn't on Champlain on Belmont

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here on 15th street. There's a lot of crime, you know, they were people coming in white individuals would come here or sort of by drugs and what have you who might? Be the group who might find themselves in Jeopardy because somebody might want to take their money and what have you but this at one

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time there was a lot of drugs in the 80s being sold all over this. All over this Malcolm X Paro all over these D streets. Belmont Rama Columbia Road 15 Street, 14th Street, even further down, you

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you know, on around pee. P Street and 14th Street deeper red light districts. Why was this these kinds of activities? He's kind of productive activities along to thrive

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because it was minorities. It involve minorities and so the police you know they were it isn't that these people look killings you know, killing folks with committing you know, crimes of significant consequences of Consequence folks who just selling drugs or gambling or doing one thing or another. So it wasn't something that the police will focused on you know and it was all around this neighborhood but the person who told you about perhaps it might have had to the reason why more

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attention wasn't paid to this part. As you gradually started to deteriorate was because the park was moved, basically mostly utilize. By African-American individuals. Do you know why? Why bother You know, but as millions and millions and millions of dollars have been invested in these areas, then Everything Changes, Everything Changes. And again, you know, to, to repay streets in it. And this isn't just one block. This has been this entire course of this entire area. Significant significant changes. It wasn't happening when we were here. Like I'm I think I told you over the phone, we have been riding bikes but no one ever said, hey, let's have a bike path. Let's create a

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doggie park. You know, we've had pets for do is think of Irving between 16th and 14th Street, and he was so dark in there to walk and you too dangerous to want to live all of that has changed as the infusion of money. You know, by these developers, they wanted to make it safe for these individuals who are buying these condos, you know. And so even across the The street from I think I mentioned this to you

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that when Jim Graham was still, the sort of counseling was a member of the city council that there was a push to eliminate the drum circle. Because it was two, people said they couldn't sleep, or it was interfering, would be a reading. You know, but it wasn't very successful. I'm sure you knew about what happened

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as well, although it has nothing to do with the park and has more to do with gentrification. We're down on 11th Street, he's people were complaining about go-go music, on 9th Street and Florida and it was a record store that had been playing music for the longest time. Now, they put up these new buildings and the people in these new buildings could

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Not deal with the music being played out of this record store. So it's been kind of the the same thing with the part. You know, where people making music that people wanted to put a stop to that, okay? Talk a little bit about how and being a Community member who partakes in the drum circle and who found comfort in like home and safety in that culture to then see it being pushed out. Again, I think that when, when you see the, I think what it engenders is just anger because somebody's coming from the outside to Posey of will. Politically on the situation or an environment that has existed for so long unabated

00:37:44.400 - 00:39:25.200

without any without interfering with anybody's life, improved live near the park at all. We utilize apart but you know when you have people who are not as like the people who've been here, they're already familiar with what's going on. And it's also a form of entertainment. You know, I mean you come to the park and see the people carry on. There's all manner of characters, you know, people are dancing who you, it's just so many things and so much energy there. That during the course of a week, you just met in a witness, anything like this. So you go to the park and you laugh and unit a nap, people acting crazy and do you know, because not only people who just playing drums, there's all kinds of people dancing and doing other things as well. So it's kind of a form of Entertainment coming to your neighborhood or you can go again, you're coming to the neighborhood and seen a form of entertainment that you're not going to see every day. And so, that's another thing that it represented to the individuals in the community that you could laugh, you could go there and drink a beer and you don't have to get something and bring something to eat the entertained by all the characters by the community entertained by the music and it was very calm. A tea because this was happening right down the street from where you lived. You know and so and it was there was it, you wanted to do you know to engage on that particular weekend or not. It was always there. And I think, and I don't know if you, if you haven't been here during the summer, right? You haven't experienced this yourself.

00:39:25.400 - 00:40:03.600

I have a couple times. Yeah. So what it was. So, you know what I'm talking about where this and it's, you know, this is way out folks, the park and carry on and you have to laugh at some stuff that you see. So, you know, he brings Joy week's entertainment and it brings comfort and your Outdoors. around doors are outdoors with people that you have a lot in common with So it's a real heavy communal experience, that takes place every Sunday. And I think

00:40:03.600 - 00:40:23.100

that The amount of families that used to come out at these families are not here as I had previously mentioned, but they were families, like the particularly Latino families. Wouldn't Athena family started moving into the community?

00:40:23.400 - 00:40:53.900

You saw more Latino families in the park. You don't see that. I mean, I run, right now, in off the top of my head, I know that as you go down 15 Street, going south part of me that they were, there was a stretch of about Two blocks and all those buildings were Latino families. They're no longer there. These buildings of those problems have been converted to come menus, but those folks used to utilize the

00:40:53.900 - 00:41:20.000

park. And again, if you don't have a form of transportation, you've been working very hard all week two and three jobs on the weekends. You know, you might want to come up with a cool and with you kids, and with a stroller and come out to the park. You know, in the summertime and enjoy the Year. Enjoy, what the environment in within the park and also, to kind of,

00:41:20.900 - 00:42:00.100

you know, to kind of go decompress from the tension of, not making a lot of money and the stress that it puts on you and not having transportation or perhaps having to take two or three buses or Metro trains to get to a place to earn. A living. And when the weekend comes one thing, you see in the Latina in the Latino Community Latino families of, you know, people are very, very focused on their children and doing things as a family. So, when the weekend would come, you know, the people who live right across the street from the

00:42:00.100 - 00:42:36.100

park, they will come to the park and the kids will run around and carry on. You know, that was one out loud. Short of taking them to some other place open space to play. And even as close as Rock Creek Park has a lot of people wouldn't won't go to Rock Creek. If this is right across the street, And so I always go back to some of the things that I've always been telling you about how the richness of how this this part impact those

00:42:36.100 - 00:42:57.800

families. Do you know, there was a way to communicate with those families because they were here every day, you know, people would just come from all over to the drum circle but they have people who hear every day. So again, that part provided a

00:42:57.800 - 00:43:24.900

a lot of comfort on a lot of different levels for a very diverse community and that has been removed, you know? I mean, the gentrification of the neighborhood. Everything that was there before these people came, they're the ones who are now thriving and

00:43:24.900 - 00:43:50.100

enjoying having this this other outline, you know, to play Frisbee and do all these other things. But the kinds of events that were taking place in the park are rarely taking place. They have political rallies, they had concerts as I was when mentioning to you before. You know the biggest names in Latin music have

00:43:50.100 - 00:44:22.400

played in mathematics Park. I mean the biggest names in Latin music. So to bring Ruben blades or send me a cruise or willing cologne, probably Latino festival in happened, play right across the street and that was huge because you don't have a so much of a Latino dancing community in New York, you know, it's a Central Americans to a certain extent of very different from Puerto Ricans. Are people from the

00:44:22.400 - 00:44:46.300

Caribbean? So to have these major artists, come to this park, to have major political figures come to this park. And have rallies and talk about the issues affecting minorities. It's been a while. Since those kinds of activities have taken place in Malcolm X Park and historically, that's always

00:44:46.300 - 00:45:03.600

happened. Do you know that's always happen and I don't hear too much about that. You know, it was taking place. I don't you know I think was last two years ago was the last time I I saw a large group of

00:45:03.600 - 00:45:25.400

people get together and I think It had to do with DACA today. Goes to the Supreme Court. Yeah. I think it was focused on that and a lot of political rallies have started here. So a lot of marches have started in a rut and Malcolm X part and then going down

00:45:25.400 - 00:45:55.200

16th Street to the White House. This is always been kind of a a jumping off point for a lot of political activities that you just don't see anymore. Let's talk a little bit about what the activism and rallies in the park. Do you consider yourself an activist? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, very much. So, work for what kind of causes I think, I think. And I don't know how relevant all of this, what I'm going to share with you is

00:45:56.500 - 00:46:09.900

but afro-latinos have been excluded Have been excluded from the or the on. Let me put it to you this way,

00:46:09.900 - 00:46:54.800

a Latinos of the invisible component of Latino culture, their perception being that Latinos and the commonality language binds all aspects of Latino culture, and that's not. So that's just a myth. Afro afro-latinos live a different experience than their white. Counterparts. So if you would like Tina and there's thousands and millions of Latinos who look like you. If we go to a bank and we solicit alone, you're more apt to get that loan than I am. I might be put through a more extensive, do you know, more extensive demand

00:46:54.800 - 00:47:20.900

for documents or what have you? I've I'm going to buy a house if I'm going to buy a car. The way I may be perceived, when I go out shopping, everything that African-Americans the liabilities that African Americans might be exposed to, we were exposed to because people look at us and they can't distinguish that this guy is comes from Puerto Rico. Or he comes from the Dominican

00:47:20.900 - 00:47:48.200

Republic or what have you, or he comes from Palma, how he comes from Venezuela places that that have black individuals within those countries and so, and I say that we are the individual with the invisible component of this culture, simply because If you watch the Latin one of the one of the great indicators of where Society is is on TV.

00:47:49.300 - 00:48:19.600

And when you go to Puerto Rico, you can't again, the perception of Puerto Ricans are Puerto Ricans know. There's a lot of racism, Puerto Rico. There's a lot of racism in the Dominican Republic. There's a lot of racism and in Panama and that carries over to the states. and so, In Publications and TV programs. It's like the 50's here the

00:48:19.600 - 00:48:57.800

first African-American. You saw on TV. The first African-Americans you saw on TV was Amos and Andy. And then Nat King. Cole in 1956 had a TV pro, he had a very popular TV program, but the southern Stations of the affiliate started complaining about white artists that will come on the show, like, Judy Garland or Doris Day that will come on, that King Cole show. And so they lost their sponsorship because the sponsors didn't want to lose their Affiliates. In the money, they were generating.

00:48:58.200 - 00:49:20.700

By the commercial time they were buying. So in ladino, called, Judy watch TV. You don't see after dinner, a lot of teams who are not in Publications, we're not we're not identified as having any kind of impact of Latino culture when you have a Hispanic Heritage Month. So, this just a

00:49:20.700 - 00:49:39.400

host, they just a host of element within the Latino culture that doesn't recognize He knows so we I don't want to Simply call the afro Latino caucus and so one of the things that we're preparing for next year is to have a Latino Heritage Month

00:49:39.900 - 00:50:02.100

to counter because you just can't have you spending heritage month and to and of only identified a ball player. Or a singer, you know, that in the, a Latino culture, there's so many people doing so many great things, but these folks are just not acknowledging.

00:50:03.200 - 00:50:19.000

Even historically, you know, there was a lawyer, his name is Antonio Ramon Antonini. He is. This is a Puerto Rican lawyer, who was the president of the House of Representatives? It's a black

00:50:19.000 - 00:50:39.300

man in Puerto Rico. In the late 50s and 60s. It was unheard of Midian. And not even a Latinos McGee, even though his existence and it's just a host of other individuals. So they are, we going to present somebody with any kind of award. We want to recognize those individuals who had an impact on the

00:50:39.300 - 00:51:42.700

culture, who never been recognized by the powers that be because the powers that be who control Commerce who control industry, who control politics of white Latinos because it the word racism inherent in these cultures were people think it doesn't exist. So there's plenty of racism in Puerto Rico legally. And so what weird when you talk about activism? Well this is one of the main focuses and if you get a chance to talk to Roland Roba, he could even expound on this even more because he's doing it. I don't, you know, I don't know where he goes to to Columbia to Panama, to talk to, to talk to government members of the government, they about these issues. And so, that is something that you really Only hear about because the perception is and then let me quickly say this, that white, the white Latino establishment is in

00:51:42.700 - 00:52:20.300

denial that this situation exists within Latino culture. And what we're trying to do is wake up these individuals to this reality. and even this community, as I said to you and we talked before on the phone that most of the social service agencies in this community were directed by white Latinos, but There were many afro-latinos who also contributed in the effort to bring

00:52:20.300 - 00:52:38.800

resources into this community, but they've never received the recognition that they deserved. And we had a woman named got Seated on Luna, and I mentioned to you, that we had, we celebrated her birthday. We do is, you know, an effort has been put forth to name a street after

00:52:38.800 - 00:52:57.500

her to recognizes individuals whose had an impact on this community. Yeah, but the people who really have control the power in the canoe political permanent Community, never had given her, the proper recognition for having an impact

00:52:58.000 - 00:54:40.600

on improving the quality of life in this in the minority community. And that's the thrust of what everybody means focused on. And also to cultivate run people and to we talking to teachers and schools to to create a curriculum talking about these issues, this awareness of Aphrodite to give greater exposure to what a Latinos are, what they've been about and what it is that they've had to deal with. And again, it just parallels what happened. Americans have experienced very little difference because if you saw me walking down the street, you're not going to say oh this rapper Sevilla, I know he's Puerto Rican. No, you just been identified as another African-American, you know, so this has been a dilemma in a way for us because you'd you have to overcome every day that you step out of your home. You have to deal with the issue of race and so when we talk about activism that's what the a Latino caucus is focus in on to try and come back, those forces that work against us you know, because it is not it is as difficult as it is in many instances as to move forward, as it is for a two. But it's not recognized as a problem within the total structure of Latino culture because their perception is language finds these people together.

00:54:40.900 - 00:55:16.300

So, how did racism exist? So that's the focus of my activism at particularly at my age and having been here, and having consumed, you know, be 75 on the 25th of this month. And you have a daughter who graduated from Rutgers, who's a lawyer? I have a son who is one of the leading spokesman on autism in this country. And so You know, I mean, things are things are

00:55:16.800 - 00:55:47.600

always that much more difficult for us in, trying to move forward and trying to be successful. You just have to have an incredible amount of spiritual fortitude to deal with The Madness of what of what it means to operate in a society that where it were is to channel racism, still thrives. That's the issue for persons of like me and for many other a

00:55:47.600 - 00:56:19.600

problem themes that is a very very very big. If not the biggest element that we're combating against and to bring recognition to individuals of color poor like thema That's the focus of what the ever Latino caucus is all about. And again, naming a street after a little Casita de, luna is a big deal and it's taken a lot of effort is taking many conversation

00:56:19.600 - 00:56:28.700

with people on the city council because it's a it's a long lengthy process, you know, to have these proclamations signed

00:56:28.700 - 00:56:50.100

off by. And so it's how, you know, and it's happened. Why? Because of a group Of individuals have come together and Broad and brought their Collective concerns to bear on on the city council. This is how all of these things regarding this lady got seen that

00:56:50.100 - 00:57:06.900

Luna who is 93 years old. This is how all of this has come to bear. And so when we, when I initially talked, to you on the phone and, you know, I don't want one. Macros Too Much from the issue

00:57:06.900 - 00:57:40.900

around the park. But when you asked me about activism and how that plays into my life, this is a major concern. This is, you know, just as as important as all the struggles within the Civil Rights Movement You know, the only thing that that was taking place down south and people lost their lives. And and, you know, I've been a part of Smith the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. I mean, I have a very lengthy and diverse

00:57:40.900 - 00:58:07.500

history with people and particularly in sniffing but at one time there was core the Congress of the Congress of racial equality in New York. It was smig. The Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. Really it was the Black Panthers that was ran. There was us, they were many many, the SCLC, you know, the southern Christian leadership

00:58:07.500 - 00:58:43.600

conference. So it was all of these folks who were working with towards one objective. Do you know? And so Latinos and we a Latinos. Now find ourselves in that kind of situation that that is the focus and collectively. Is the only way that you can really bring about change. You know, when you have numbers to speak of and you have good ideas as to where to bring this awareness you know particularly to the schools and to cultivate young leaders who are afro-latinos to provide that history. So they can have

00:58:43.600 - 00:58:57.100

that awareness not come to it when you 1340 but to come to that experience when you're 13 14 and 15. So I in terms of active ISM to respond to your

00:58:57.100 - 00:59:21.800

question. That's where my focus is. Have you ever participated in after this is over protest in the Park? Yeah, yeah. I mean not only in the park but in other places but the park was at one time. I mean the park is the central focus of a lot of activity, you know, political

00:59:21.800 - 00:59:35.200

activity. It's almost like gradually that that diminished kind of with time. And now it's very difficult, very hard to see where things are taking

00:59:35.200 - 01:00:41.700

place, but the park was like, I was saying earlier, it was kind of like a jumping off point for lots of political activities, political rallies, that would eventually take place downtown for demonstrations. All the organizing took place here of individuals. And to strap in the park, was used to strategize as to what was going to happen to once we left the park. And go downtown, you know, and rally. And what have you? The part was always the jumping off point and facilitated the process. Like I said, to really strategize and get your agenda in order in a manner of speaking. So that you could do something in a way that was more more structured rather than just go out and just raise hell and raise your voice. You know, do any of those times that you were in the park protesting or demonstrating stand out in your memory? I think they were the Malcolm x-- J

01:00:41.700 - 01:01:14.500

rallies and only because of Malcolm's impact on Louis black community. But not only on the black community and people always perceived Malcolm X impact on the African American Community, but he impacted all kinds of people and particularly in the Latino Community because he had the ability It was The Giver of the gift of oratory and bringing truth and in the clearest

01:01:14.500 - 01:02:07.900

possible way. He could just highlight truth like putting a light right in front of your face. So you had to see the disparity, the injustices, the inequality of life here as an actor for the African-Americans what that was like. And so Malcolm had a powerful powerful powerful impact of demons as well. And it's something that My my perception is that not a lot of people may see that that Malcolm X was what black folks know, Malcolm accident in Cuba and all over Latin. America was revealed as well as Act Naturally. But it was those kinds of rallies that would to me among the most in African Liberation day. There was there were things taking place here You know, there were performances here. You had to have