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Okay. Today is October 12, 2020 and this interview is being conducted virtually on Their Story. My name is Claudia Vinci and today I'm interviewing Rebecca Robinson, one of the artists of the Black Lives Matter mural in downtown Indianapolis, Indiana. First, Rebecca, do I have your permission to record the interview? Yes, you do. Perfect. Okay, let's start off with a little bit about who you are. So, can you tell me just in a couple sentences who you are and about yourself? Sure. Well, my name is Rebecca Robinson. Everyone calls me Becky and I like to say I've been a creative all my life, but I've been an artist and a professional artist for the last 20 years. When I got out of school, I wasn't quite sure what direction I was going to take. I just knew I wanted to do something with my creativity because of going to school. I thought I was going to take a fashion design direction, which I did, and it was a great learning experience for me. But I think it did not necessarily showcase all of my talents because I kind of got pin-holed into creating these one-of-a-kind handbags, and people didn't know that I was truly a fine artist. So I took a step back from the fashion, and I decided to go a hundred percent into painting and I think I started that journey back in I think 2012-2013, I started painting full-time.

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Amazing. Thank you. Let's go back to – can you tell me a little bit about your childhood experiences? Where are you from and where did you grow up? I'm originally from Indianapolis, Indiana. I was brought up in a household where I was introduced to a lot of culture when it came to music and art. Both of my parents are very creative. My mom used to sketch a lot and sculpt, so I used to see that. My uncle, my father's brother, he's a professional artist and even taught at the university level in Ohio. So I was always around art. I grew up in a Montessori school, I went to Montessori school from the age of like three or four years old until around 11 or 12. So the curriculum there was learn how to like embrace your individuality and be creative and we were taking science and math and we had – I think the second language then was French so we had to learn French and Latin. Taking ballet was mandatory, language arts. We were introduced to a lot of things as little kids. So I remember and her name is (unintelligible) and I adore her. She was director of Children's House, that's what it was called, Children's House Montessori School. It was literally in a house, like it was this huge home. I think it had like five or six bedrooms that were turned into classrooms and I remember vividly every morning we would get to school and we had to sit at this table and everybody kind of sat in like a half circle and we had these things called contracts. And so we used to have to write on our contract – now mind you, we're like four, five, six years old, seven, eight – and we had to write down what we wanted to do for the day. And so I was really smart about what I wanted because outside was like the epitome of the day, like that was the goal to get outside. So I would write science, math, reading – I had definitely art and then I would always put outside last so I can enjoy the rest of the day. So you think that your Montessori School – it sounds like really affected you later to be an artist or was that something that happened later?

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I think so, I mean, I just always love inventing things and creating things and even as an adult, when it comes to art, I really like building things. So it's not even just the painting. I enjoy like the whole process of doing things with materials that are not traditional or finding things or creating something out of nothing, but I would like to say I was pretty creative. And not just in the visual arts, but I loved like the acting side of things. I was that kid that knew Annie backwards and forwards, like I drove my parents crazy because I knew every song in Annie and they had this big clunky camera back then and they used to record me doing like the entire Broadway play of Annie. So I would like to say I was like the first black Annie. And I do have footage of that – one day I might have to put that out whenever I have like a little mini doc about my life. I have to throw in the the Annie. Yeah, of course you do. Before I ask you about your college experience, I wanted to ask you what it was like growing up in Indianapolis as a young black woman? Do you think – what experiences do you have that you can talk about? During the time, I guess it was more relevant is in high school and you get to that age where you're making friends, you start to drive, and you want to go out and things like that. But back then, I mean I graduated in high school in '92. So I can't remember a lot of stuff that we could do – other than house parties were popular. We were too young to go clubbing or anything and it was really about friendship because everybody would go over to someone's house and hang out and things like that. But I knew when I graduated from high school that I really wanted something bigger and at the time – I just even back then, Indianapolis is just not where I really wanted to be. I just felt like I wasn't necessarily exposed to a lot of the art and culture that's happening today. And that was no fault, you know of mine or anyone else, you know – African-Americans –because it was just not as prominent. You know what I mean? And my mom she's originally from Atlanta, Georgia. So in the summers, I used to go there and stay with my grandmother. So I had that exposure. I said well when I get out of high school, the first thing I want to do is leave and Atlanta just seemed like the perfect place for me to get a start going into adulthood. Tell me about that transition between Indianapolis and Georgia. Was it quite a different experience as a young person?

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Yeah, and that was like one of the best times of my life. When I got out of high school, like I said, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I wasn't really focused, like hyper focus, like a lot of kids, whether they decide to go to IU or Purdue or Ball State. I was more focused like I just want to get out of Indianapolis. So I used to get those magazines – I think it was like Teen and Seventeen Magazines and back then in the back of the magazine, they had a bunch of ads. There was always this ad and it said Bauder College and it was for like a fashion design, marketing, modeling – something like that – two-year program associate's, whatever it was sounded good to me because I said well, fashion sounds cool. That's something I can do and I applied and I didn't even think about applying to – I applied to a couple of other fashion – I did apply to the Fashion Institute of Technology and Parsons. I remember my dad saying: I'm not – I don't know if I'm comfortable with you going to New York. And I get it now. I mean, I was only 17 years old, but Bauder was safe because it was in Atlanta my mother (unintelligible) – to the program. I took the concentration in fashion. So when I got there, you know, I learned all the tools about fashion design, draping, industrial sewing, marketing, all those things, but I spent so much time building the friendships and just kind of becoming an adult in Atlanta. I didn't really think about: would I really have a real career in fashion? Like I just, who does? Unless you get out and you do an apprenticeship or internship or work under an already established designer, but to be honest, when I graduated from that program I was like, where am I going to get a job? I don't want to do a pattern. I really actually despise sewing but I know how to do it (unintelligible) – about the friendships that I made and I really enjoyed (unintelligible). So your college major was specifically fashion, not as much art. Did you go back and get some sort of art degree, or is that mostly what you did for your education? I did, I did – you have some great questions today (both laugh). I'm glad you asked that because at the time I was in Atlanta, I was in the fashion program, but I also made a lot of friends of people that were going to Morehouse – which is HBCU Spelman, Clark Atlanta. I was around those campuses and I almost had a little bit of envy because I said, wow, I'm in this fashion program and then everybody else is having like this true college experience and they had the homecoming and the band and campus and the yard and all these things and I was like gosh (unintelligible).

00:11:20.900 - 00:14:05.700

But after I got my degree in fashion, my mom had taken ill and I ended up moving back to Indianapolis to help my dad or my mom and I remember my dad asked me he's like – and I think I stayed home about a year and a half. So I really took a hard break and so he asked me, I think it was during the holidays, and he was like do you want something special for Christmas? And I was like I really just want to go back to school if I could. If you could help me and support, since I made a sacrifice to come home, anything that I could do to have this experience of college life. That's what I want for Christmas and my dad said, you know what, let's do whatever it is that you want to do, I got your back. And so I applied to several HBCUs. My dad went to Howard, but I am thinking. I didn't apply to any schools in Atlanta, which was strange, but I think I wanted to just try some other options. I met some really good people in Atlanta that were from North Carolina. So I ended up applying to North Carolina Central University, which is an HBCU in Durham, and I specifically majored in art and visual communication. So when did you start, officially I guess, as a professional artist? Was it after you did that degree? After I did that degree, I still wasn't sure how I was going to have a career and I guess that means like how are you going to make money? So when I did graduate from North Carolina Central University, we were introduced to photography, fine art, marketing, branding. It was a lot involved, but for some reason, I went back to the fashion and I was like, well, what if I incorporate my fine art with creating these one-of-a-kind handbags. I think at the time handbags, shoes, things like that were really popular. Sex in the City had just come out during that time and I was like, let me see if I can create a niche for myself and that's how I kind of started with the purses. So from there, was it like – did you start your own business or was that just some of the products you were creating at that time?

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Yeah, I ended up starting my own business and I think that was probably around – I started dipping and dabbing it in like 2001, 2002 and I just wanted to learn the mechanics of how to create a high-end handbag, but I wanted them to be art pieces. So I spent really developing this process on how can I make these handbags out of my artwork? (unintelligible) very large murals and from my fashion degree. I started making different patterns and I would lay the patterns on my murals and these were pre-painted canvases. So I would put the pattern pieces, cut it and sew them into these handbags and I was like, oh my gosh, this is really – this is amazing. Because I didn't realize (unintelligible) and I ended up I think I bit off a lot more than I could chew when it came down to the purses because I spent a lot of time, a lot of money developing these handbags. So are the handbags something you're still working with or have you moved on to other projects since then? (unintelligible) I developed, you know, like a special coating that went on them. I did this whole marketing and branding and in my mind, I was like this is it – this is what I will be known for is creating these purses but it took its toll on me and I just I say probably by year eight or nine, I was burnt out, I was a little frustrated. I just felt like people weren't really recognizing the beauty of the purses and the value of the purses. I just was ready to move on to be honest. I didn't want to give it up necessarily, but I just needed to take a break from it. And then that's how I transition into painting, just painting, again and that was like I said, I think back probably like 2011-2012 when I decide to put the purses on hold. Okay, so recently you have mostly been painting. Can you describe your art style for me?

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Yes. Now I had to almost reinvent my art style. When I first started painting, I used to do a lot of colorful work. I worked with acrylics – acrylics are really easy to work with. I used to love doing like large-scale paintings, but my work was always very colorful and vivid, but I wasn't feeling that way. I just think it was just expected because even the palette for my purses were very colorful and bright. And I was like, I have a bigger story and there was something in me that says Becky you have to stop trying to do what you think people expect of you, but just start doing what you feel and I wanted to give up the color palette. Like straight up, I don't want to do anything in color anymore. I don't think I was necessarily sad or anything like that. I think I just wanted to show people that I had a story. I have some things that would allow maybe a door to open for people to talk to me more about me and my experiences and not just the handbags. I was so tired of people associating me, like that's the girl that makes purses. And so I started doing some artwork and some darker colors specifically black and white, but what really changed the game and I still to this day do not know how this really happened. I went to the hardware store – this is 2014, 2015 – and I was like, I want something like gritty and grimy and just kind of rough. I don't know and I just started buying all these materials and concrete. I don't I can't tell you, Claudia. I don't know why I don't know how it just happened and I bought the concrete I bought some tar. I bought some latex paint. I bought some plywood and like I said back in the times, I love inventing things and creating formulas and I just created – and I still have the first piece that I did (unintelligible) and when I saw it, I was just like oh my gosh, this is amazing. What could it be? You know, nobody (unintelligible). And where we are now, most of my work, the majority of my work is done with that medium, concrete and tar. That's so interesting. Are these pieces usually something that you put in galleries or is there like a main thing that you do with these? Yeah, the first time I exhibited the concrete work, there was a gallery here in Indianapolis. It was called Oasis and it was a privately owned gallery and a friend of mine was – matter of fact (unintelligible) that's called We are Indy Arts. But her name is Latoya Marlin and she was doing some curating there and she said: Rebecca, are there any pieces you would like to show, I think we're going to do maybe two or three people in the show. And I said, yeah, actually I do, I would love to and I really love doing like a series of things. So when I finally kind of nailed down my technique with the concrete, she told me there wasn't necessarily like a theme but I was free to do what I wanted. So at the time I mean, I was just going through so much emotionally, I decided to do a 6-piece series about the stages of just emotional abuse and I think a lot of people deal with that, whether it's just through family relationships, your personal journey, just certain things. We're hard on ourselves. Sometimes we abuse ourselves when we shouldn't and I did this 6-piece series and I never told anybody really, what I was going through but I just wanted the artwork to speak for itself. And so I had six pieces up in that show and that was very monumental for me because that was the first gallery that gave me an opportunity to show this particular work, but also for me to show like I'm on a whole other path and I'm ready for people to to learn more about me as an artist.

00:21:39.600 - 00:23:41.900

Amazing. So how long ago was that? That was in 2015, that was in 2015. So I hung those pieces probably for like a whole year. I did Oasis, those pieces were at the Athenaeum downtown. They were also at Clowes Hall and it was just the feedback I was getting and what I noticed, every time people would walk into a gallery space, there would be artwork all over the walls naturally in different colors and mine were always in black and white but people were drawn to it and that's interesting because we always think everything that's the loudest or the brightest gets the attention and that's not necessarily true, you know, but it fit right in so once people really start asking questions about it, and they were very curious to the medium. I was like, I want to do some other play around with some other things. So I started doing a series of jazz artists with the same medium. And those are amazing. They're even – the pieces I have now – they're even hard to sell. I've sold several pieces of the jazz series but it's hard to let them go because even when I see them, I'm just like, oh my God, they're amazing. Awesome. I want to move into a little bit about your activism. Do you consider yourself an activist? I would like to say I am. I think activism is if you're passionate about something and whether you speak on it with your best friend, or you speak on it to a hundred, or a thousand people if you are, like I said, just (unintelligible) something in particular and you have something to say and you want to speak up then I would consider that activism. Yes.

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Do you see your activism as something separate from your art or do you think it's a part of your work? I think it's become more a part of my work and I think like I said a lot of my artwork was about my (unintelligible) now because of being more of an activist. Because it's like even though I might be painting something or expressing something (unintelligible) with me, it actually kind of compliments what's happening now and and maybe that was happenstance. It wasn't like some people deliberately paint things, you know specifically about you know, whatever the signs of times, but I think mine when I paint it just happens to fall in line and in place with what's going on, so it just makes more of a dialogue because you know, it's like the one in the same for me. So I never sometimes, I never know exactly what's going to come out of my work like everybody's different some people sketch it ahead, some people have it already in their mind. I can't say I work that way. I just have a feeling about something and then it's in my mind. Like okay, well, how would I want to express this visually and then by the time I paint, it may be totally different than what I thought in my mind, but it's almost like organically something just kind of unfolds and I love it to be that way. I don't like it to be as calculated. Cool. Let's move into a little bit about Black Lives Matter and some recent events. First of all, do you consider – and this might seem obvious to you, but do you consider yourself kind of a part of Black Lives Matter? Absolutely. I feel as if I've been a part of it from day one without even knowing it. It's just everyone else knows it now. So being a black person, and I think all black people I would like to think, that we've always felt that way. It's just now, it's just become – that's the language so, I will always been a part of it. But now I have a bigger impact because I've lived it, I've experienced it, and now I get to share my personal feelings and use my voice. Whether it's technically my voice or my visual voice to talk about the importance of black lives. So most definitely.

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So within that, how has your life been shaped by any experiences of racial discrimination or even any police violence, things like that? Me personally, not anything directly as far as police violence for me, but just discrimination. Going back to you know, the fashion industry, being – and even to this day. It's really hard to say, what are the prominent African-American fashion designers that are really in the industry? And I'm not talking about, you know rappers and things like that and not to discredit what they do as far as branding, but when you think of mainstream fashion, fashion houses, fashion designers – not too many black people that are prominent designers that are well-known and I really want to be that person. I had no idea how hard it was going to be and maybe that's (unintelligible) and I can't say for sure but I would have to say it's a lot of discrimination that goes on in fashion, in marketing, and branding. And a lot of these brands have thrived because of the culture and when it comes down to black folks in general, just being extremely people. We pretty much – we set the tone and I think that might be one of the reasons why I wanted to step away from the fashion industry because I said, I don't want to keep fighting or beating a dead horse, so to speak. I was like, you know, there comes a time and a place where I'll be able to play my position and it's coming. I had to step away from it and refocus and so now that this movement is happening, I think that this will be the best time to start reintroducing the part I might play when it comes down to the fashion industry because I do want to make my mark in fashion and and in the arts. Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. Let's move into discussing the mural. Before we discuss your role specifically, can you tell me about how the mural came to be, who were the leaders of the project, things like that? Yeah. Well, I – it was just pretty – it was quick. I was on Facebook and I saw a couple of ads – it was like a little flyer and it was just like contact this person if you're interested in this project on Indiana Avenue. And soon as I saw it, within seconds, I was like: absolutely, I'll just email whoever it is. I'll make sure to turn in whatever it was and it was very quick. I got an email back and it just asks a few questions and within maybe 24 to 48 hours, they were assigning me a letter.

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As I've talked to other artists, it kind of happened the same way for them as well. And from what I was told I think hundreds of people sent an email saying they wanted to do it but it was narrowed down. So if you could think about that, like if it was hundreds of people and they narrowed it down to 18. I mean that's really powerful and I don't know how or why they chose who they did. I'm just so honored that I was one of those people that was chosen. I mean, I didn't care what letter I had. I just wanted to be a part of this so we didn't even know like the magnitude. I mean we were just all wanting to do something, you know, pretty amazing and we were told the dates the times, when to show up, what was expected. We were also told, this was something that had been in the works for months because of permits and permission and getting, you know, the city involved. So we wanted – they wanted – to us to be comfortable with the fact that this was not just something happenstance and we're just going out there and throwing some paint on the – on the street. This was something that had been planned for months with the city of Indianapolis. So the city did approve – did you do you know of any – is there like a specific group that headed it or was it just some individuals? Yes, it's called Indy 10 Black Lives Matter and let's see there was Malina – we call her Mali – Jeffers, Alan Bacon and Stacia [Murphy]. They were the ones that pretty much spearheaded everything and I mean I have to give them their props because for them to advocate and to fight for this to be done without even saying a word to the public until it was – it was time – it was ready. It wasn't like we were (unintelligible) and talking and well what if and how about this and what if we – they did all that and all they had to do was reach out and say, okay who wants to do it? But I wonder – I even would like to ask them like how hard it was to narrow that down because I'm pretty sure there had to be hundreds and hundreds of people that wanted to do it.

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Do you know how the money was raised for the project? I'm not sure how money was raised – it was a lot of donations that were given. I know the Urban League donated – I believe the supplies, you know, the paint and the brushes. Tamika Catchings, which owns Tea's Me here in Indianapolis, and she previously played for the WNBA. But she donated funds to the artists as well. So there were some people that were donating some things here and there and maybe they just didn't publicly – you know, they weren't concerned about like – well, make sure my name is on here as a sponsor. (unintelligible) in organizations and said, how can we help? There was even people that donated pizza (unintelligible) the day that we were out there. A DJ came out there. So I think everybody collectively just wanted to make this like a really memorable event. What do you think the original vision for the project was and do you – I think you mentioned this, but was the idea always to have 18 artists paint each letter of the Black Lives mural hashtag? No – I'm not sure. I mean, I honestly think there was a lot of other cities that already had done the Black Lives (unintelligible), you know in DC and Charlotte, there was different cities that were doing it and I think Indianapolis was like, okay, how can we make this happen? But what was great about it (unintelligible) a lot of people together, whether you were an artist or an activist or you were just someone in the community that just wanted to also participate in this movement, but like I said, I don't think that everyone knew it was going to take on I guess the effect that it did.

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I believe Indianapolis is the only city that did the Black Lives Matter font in like a stylized font. If you notice, a lot of other cities just use like a block style font, and we're the only ones that did like this – and that's Israel Solomon did the stencil and each letter is very stylized and it was just amazing because it even made it more unique. And so at the end of the day, it was almost like something that was being planned, but it just kind of took on its own (unintelligible). I really don't think everyone knew exactly what was going to happen. So can you walk me through your portion of the mural specifically, like what was your plan? What does it look like? (both laugh) Can you describe it and kind of ideas motivated you? Yeah. Well, when I was told I was going to get the letter L in Black – once the final 18 artists were chosen, we did a couple of Zoom conferences just so we would have a heads-up of the scale, you know, the height and the width and just so we could understand the magnitude of how large it really was. We didn't have a lot of time. So it was just like, okay, what can I do that could be extremely powerful in my letter and I'm sure every artist thought that. They probably were like, okay, what can I – and I actually thought like the aerial shots – I said since this is so huge, Becky, what can you do where once these shots are looking down on it, where you can really read it and see it. So the art piece – I did a mural about maybe four weeks before this. And that's why (unintelligible) Then we did the the murals downtown. So the first mural that I did was called (unintelligible) – a silver man on one knee and he's kneeling and he's holding up a flag. And that's where I had an all blacked out United States and I called it New Nation, signifying unity and you know, yada yada yada. But when I got the letter I said well, how can I incorporate that same concept? And so I just started sketching something and it was great because the letter turned out to be perfect.

00:37:44.700 - 00:42:00.000

Because it's the letter L, so I did – New Nation was coming down there (gestures the shape of the letter L) and then I put the same drawing of the silhouette of the human figure kneeling holding that new flag and I was like – I wanted to put little stars on their just almost to give it that patriotic look. And then John Lewis, Congressman – the late Congressman John Lewis had passed and I was like – I want to trip do a tribute to him too. So I added in there good trouble and I didn't plan that out a month ago or so I just want – I just want to almost feel like, whether it's my ancestors or, you know, my life experiences or just showing gratitude that something is speaking to me and through me because now that's going to be forever memorialized and every person that had a letter has a story of why they chose the colors they did, why they put the content that they did and that's extremely powerful. From what you just said, it sounds like you were all able to kind of decide what you wanted to paint. What do you think? Can you talk about like the diversity in what people actually drew, like was that an interesting thing that just kind of happened the way it did? Yeah, and when I went back and because you know the day that we were painting, everybody's hustling – it was raining off and on and everybody's spirits were still high. You know, we were just on cloud nine. I think we just wanted to try to get it done. So we were so focused on our own letter, you didn't have a chance to look at everyone else's until it was done and everything kind of calmed down, but when I went back, I think the next day, it was a beautiful day out and I just went to each letter. And keep in mind all these artists – I only know – I only knew like a couple of them that I work with and I've done shows with but there was a lot of new people too, so I was learning about the art before I even really got to know the person and it said a lot about that person. Some stuff had more Afrocentric type of vibe, some had more contemporary edge to it, some used a lot of typography –straight lines. You know very, you know, exact. Some people have more movement and flow and be – you know what I mean, and it was interesting when you met that person, you were like I get it – I get it (both laugh) and we've really formed a great bond and friendship. Eighteen people from all walks of life, different experiences as artists, some are more like a novice and some have been doing this for years. Some people are like I've never had to talk so much in my life, you know, to media and doing interviews and they're learning and they're practicing and then the other people like myself that have been doing this for a long time or are almost emotionally moved because something like that has – it's still going. It's still – we're still working together – because people would say, oh, we know you guys painted something on Indiana Avenue, but you know, we knew that wasn't going to solve the problem, but we knew it was an opportunity to speak about the problem and people are going to listen now and art is something that causes people to stop and look and listen and ask questions and I think that is an amazing (unintelligible).

00:42:00.000 - 00:43:20.700

Sorry, I think it paused for a second. You mentioned the 18 and that was something I was originally really interested in hearing you talk about. Can you tell me more about the self titled 18 and kind of its importance to you and the other artists? Yeah, we were going back and forth because at first when we finished the the mural and know the hype and then even after, it was the things and just so much more going on. My phone was going off constant because everybody was texting, texting, texting and then I can't remember who it was but someone was like, okay, we need to get on a whole separate chat because this is becoming like crazy. And so we got on private chat and everybody added each other and that was a way for us to communicate on what were we going to do next. What do you guys – are you going to show something else? Are you going to exhibit the the artwork? And when we started getting these invitations, the question is what do you guys call – is it a name or what is the group so we kind of went back and forth on like what would be like (unintelligible).