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So just to begin, today's October 21st 2021, and we are recording this interview on theirstory and I'm here with Robert Rogers. And can you just confirm that I have your permission to record this interview? Yes, ma'am. Perfect. And then just to start us off could you tell me a little bit just about your background and where you grew up? I grew up in Iowa until I was five. Then I moved to Muscoy, California, which was a little community. The- our house was the last one on the block to rest. It was all wash or desert. So we grew up running around anywhere and everywhere and then I graduated high school. I fought forest fires on a hand crew for seven months. Then when that was done, there was no winter jobs because all the college students took them and my dad said either get a job or join the service. So I went to the Navy

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Do you remember when you first heard about the War in Vietnam. It's not a war. Lets reclassify that, it's a police action that has never has been declared a war, and I heard about it probably in my high school years because they were in Vietnam in 65, so, probably right about then. And when I joined the service, I heard about it. So what were your impressions about the reasons that the US chose to become involved in Vietnam? Everybody before me all my greats and stuff, all served in a wartime situation. My dad was over in the European conflict. He got hurt. He got a purple heart and all kinds of stuff. So we've all been service-related one way or another and I wanted to go and do my thing to serve my country. When I got through boot camp and through A school, that's when they started getting all the people screaming and hollering against Vietnam. And that was not a good thing. I was not a happy camper when I got out.

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Did you know anything about- Did you hear any reasoning from the US as to why they were sending people to Vietnam? Like, what they're going to- Slow down a little bit? Because I don't have my hearing aids in so I try but have trouble understanding you. So what were the- what was the goal of the US. In sending people to Vietnam? We were trying to police the Communists out of South Vietnam, to give them our way of life. If the Communists takeover and it's like piece by piece by piece. They just keep taking more and more and more and pretty soon they would have been in the United States where they are now anyway, but we were trying to keep them out of the southern part of the country.

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And then you mentioned that your father also served. So how did you feel about people in general who served in the military? I'm a hundred and ninety percent for them. We all have a job to do and they're serving our country. They're helping everybody. So I mean, that was my thing was to do a service to my country and protect it. And then, can I ask, how did you feel about the use of the draft or Selective Service? I signed up for the draft, but I was so far down on it. Well, let me take that back my first trip into Vietnam. So a year or so after I enlisted, I got my draft notice. I was in Vietnam, "You are hereby drafted." No, I am already here. But yeah, I think the draft ought to be good for everybody. Male and female, because females could serve in other parts. It doesn't need to be combat. I had a great-granddaughter that was in the Army over in Kabul, a year or so ago she got out, but she was over there for some time. So everybody can serve, you know it's something that gives meaning and purpose to life for you. Right now, they're just a bunch of whiners and criers. "Well, I need this." Like what you don't- You haven't earned it my right. My thoughts.

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So did you have a different perspective of people who voluntarily served compared to those who had to be drafted to serve? Yeah, because they volunteered. They stood up and said my name on the dotted line rather than "hey, you come here and do this," you know, they're dragging their heels. Lot of people went to Canada, you know, and that's the people that I hope they stay, they can't or don't let them back in. You don't want to serve your country. You don't want to be here for the draft. Dodge someplace else. Did you know anybody who chose to evade the draft? No, everybody in my high school, my neighborhood, we all joined the service over in Vietnam. I saw four or five buddies that I knew from school. Hey, Tom. Hey, Bob We're passing, like just in the middle- the ships in the night. But yeah, there was about six or seven of us from our neighborhood that I know were there.

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Do you think that your father's background encouraged you to join? Oh, yes, ma'am. You know, it was either do this or do that. I mean it, you know, he had more influence on me than court of law. Did you know if I got in trouble as a teenager and courts said well, "go to jail or join the service." No, my dad will- He was pretty hot. He was right on. He says, get a job or join the service. So I joined the Navy. and then you briefly mentioned it, but could you go into a little more detail about how you first became involved in the military. When he said that, I went down between Christmas and New Year's. Joined the Navy. Come home and said I leave January third to go to boot camp in San Diego. I thought my mom was going to kill my dad, the look on her face. So I spent three and a half months of boot camp is San Diego. I got assigned to a builder A school, which is your one of your top schools for being a builder. I learnt cement masonry, painting, building light, building heavy bridges and stuff. So I spent four or five months in school and then I got assigned to MC B 8, which is mobile construction battalion. Eighth Auto in Port Hueneme. I was there for two weeks, we did three weeks in military training, and a week back at the base and then I was gone to Vietnam. Could Vietnam. Could Vietnam. Could Vietnam. Could Vietnam. Could Vietnam. Could Vietnam. Could Vietnam. Could

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Vietnam. Could Vietnam. Could Vietnam. Could Vietnam. Could Vietnam. Could Vietnam. Could Vietnam. Could Vietnam. Could you tell me specifically about what you did in the Navy? Well, we don't claim the Navy as Seabees, the Navy claims us. We're independent. We're on the land we're building, we're shaping things, we're protecting things. So as a builder light, it was my job to build light constructions, you know, tents, building stuff like that. Builder heavy was bridges. Well, we had Vietnam, I did everything. We built bridges, we did- was all encompassing. So first trip over there we built a chapel, gas station, a lot of huts for Marines and stuff that have- we're living in tents. And we went and built buildings for them to sleep in. And I did, like I said, work on the chapel, a big chapel church, and a gas station. I worked in a sawmill saw shop, building bathrooms, a lot of bathrooms. One of the pictures is the most used place in the camp. You'll see that and it was just a lot of underground construction for putting pipeline and culverts across the road. We did a lot of that. What years were you there? All the good ones 67, 8, 9, all the TETs. You know, I think I sent [a picture] one has got a stack of bodies out there. We got hit one night and we stacked up a hundred and fifty bodies the next day of the guys that attacked. They couldn't haul them off as quick as we were knocking them down and I have seven credited to my name that I know of.

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So from the beginning of your service, to the end of it, did your role evolve in what you were responsible for? As I climbed up in rank, instead of just being a gopher, I became a lead worker. So now I was in charge of anywhere from six to fifteen men crews. We- you'll see the picture of a bridge, I think I sent it to you. I had eight guys, working underneath me, steel workers and builders and we were re-decking this bridge because the quarry trucks were bending the piles with pontoons in them. So we had to pull them out, replace them. Then we put six by eighteen deck down twice and creosote. And we got- we got creosote burned pretty bad over there. It burns good. So before you returned home from your time in Vietnam, did you have any expectations as to how people might receive your time there? None. None. I knew that's when the hippies and yippies were running amok and creating burning flags and treating servicemen with disrespect. On the second time, I came out of the bus station and I had liquid poop and pee dumped all over me. You know there were nineteen people on that doorstep and growing up as a kid I was the oldest of six and my mom used to say, "we're going to the store. Robert, put your hands in your pockets." Okay.

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So I hit the bus station. I heard my mom loud and clear and she was not there. If I hadn't of heard her there would have been nineteen dead people sitting on that doorstep within a matter of minutes. You know, you don't disrespect us like that. We are doing what we did so you could do what you did to us. We're giving you the freedom to do. I want to take that freedom back for nineteen people. Do you think that people's dislike of the draft may have contributed to their dislike of the US's involvement in Vietnam? Well, people involved with the draft were- pretty much once they got over there they, they fit in with the rest of us. I mean, I don't care if you're black, brown, yellow or white. We all bleed red. We were all the same people. You know, I had a good buddy, he was black. I had one that was Indian and we got along, just like two pieces of paper in a package of paper. I mean, you're there, you're doing the same job and you're covering each other's back side. Something happened, I can count on them to be there for me. It was called I got your six, it means they got your backside. so, once they were there, it was there, wasn't any difference between me and them. There were a few conscientious objectors that got through, but they were weeded out real quickly and sent back home. Were there any ways that your experience was different than you may have anticipated it to have been before you served?

00:12:21.500 - 00:15:25.500

I had no anticipation of what it was to serve. The only thing I knew was that being a builder, I was going to go build, repair the country and bring it up for a better way of life for folks. That was my whole concept of what I was doing, you know, mobile construction battalion, they move 1500 of us in different flights, so, there's a whole battalion of us over there. So, the builder, steelworkers, plumbers, They had Fleet Sailors that were running our office for Yeoman and for running our Armory, had a fleet sailer for armor, but the rest of us would just all construction wage. We did what we had to do to get things done. And then you briefly mentioned the story about getting off the bus, but could you speak more about your experiences with returning home and the public's reaction to that? First time home wasn't too bad. I got delayed party coming home. And I got- I had to go back again. Seabees generally are six in six out, six in. Well, I was nine in, four home and back over for eleven. I signed up for advance party. I wanted to get it done. I want to go over there. I'm going to do my thing, and then get home, and try and return to a normal life. I came home, horns would set me off, car backfiring would set me off, because you lived in that zone where if something happens, you reacted to it, you jump down or whatever and horns and car backfiring scare me. Loud noises scare me. The first time home. Second time home was even worse. Because we had been in four or five firefights and I killed a five-year-old kid over there. Second time. He was throwing rocks at us. One day, he was out there by himself. I later realized he threw a grenade at us. I- five rounds of a 12-gauge shotgun, there wasn't much left of him. But they forgot to show him how to pull the pin on the grenade. So it just bounced off the truck, but I reacted, you know, if you want to see something close to what we went through, look at Apocalypse Now. And where that river boat pulls the sampan over to look for contraband and whatever, they have their guns, trained on them and the little girl jumped to save her puppy while they just unload it. And that's the way it was. You just you snapped. You do. You don't even think, it's automatic reaction. So, that's something. If you want to look at it, be aware of it. It's as good as it can be. Until Charlie Sheen goes into Cambodia, then it gets way out of line. Way too futuristic or whatever you want to call it. But up until that point in time it's pretty real. The reality of it is rare.

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And then, once you were back, how long do you remember, protesters being active? Oh, years. Years. I got back in 69 and up until the Vietnam War ended in 75, the protesters were there. I just stayed away from people and places, you know, a lot of people had me, you know, really spooky. I sit with my back against the door or away from the door up against the wall. I can see anybody coming in. I had a sixth sense for somebody coming up within six or seven feet of me. Somebody touched me on the shoulder, they were sitting on the ground. Looking up at me. I reacted and knocked them on the ground. So, for two, three years after that, that's the way I was, you know, you didn't get close to me. I felt you. Now, the only person that can walk up and touch me is my wife now and she's been through it, she's a year or two older than I am but she's been through the Vietnam and she understands. I came home with Agent Orange from what was going on over there and I have PTSD. So at ninety percent for what they're paying me, ninety percent of a hundred percent for what I went through over there. I got heart issues, and diabetes, and neuropathy, all kinds of other issues that we come home with, to Agent Orange, And the first several years after your returned, do you feel like there were any specific things that were really misunderstood about what it was like to serve in Vietnam? For years after I got home, they didn't understand that you- we didn't talk about it, for I don't know years, you know, World War Two Guys, Korea, guys, they never talked about the service. It just- it was not something anybody said. So we went to a summer wedding two years after I was home I guess and it was a nice big place, had a pool. So all the guys are sitting out back drinking, you know, beers, whatever and are smoking cigars and cigarettes. And this old man says, "well, what was it like over there?" Well, four of my buddies were in the same place, the same time, It was just different branches of service. So we got to talking. The World War two guys got to talking back and forth about what they were going through, and somebody looked up and says, "oh, shit." And I go what. "Look behind you." Our wives have been standing behind us listening to what we did over there. If we ever got woke up at night they shook your big toe. Nobody come up to put a hand on your shoulder or your chest because you'd lose it. So they had to shake a big toe to wake you up. So, for the next couple, three months, the wives were never touching us at all. We scared them half to death, but that's how we lived. You know, it was real rough conditions, almost to the point of camping now. We had showers, but when it rained over there in a monsoon season, the rain was warmer than the showers were, they were all cold. We can ever get hot showers, you know, so it just was one of those things that when we came home for years, after we came home, we didn't feel settled, especially the second trip home. You know, I was really leery of anybody near me.

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And then sort of moving into the memory that the war has had in the US, you mentioned Apocalypse Now a couple minutes ago. Do you remember what it was like when movies about Vietnam first started coming out in the US? I don't know about one that started the movies but I've seen Apocalypse Now and the other one was- I can't think of it. There was two of them. They had it at Rohnert Park in the theater for a dollar. So we got to see to Vietnam movies and the one was about the Marines and stuff going into Hue and recapturing Hue and it had a guy reach out and pick up a rabbit. We're all screaming, don't pick it up man. It's a trap. He picked it up and it blew the arms off. So there was a lot of booby traps and stuff over there that we had to be careful of. But if you watch the people, the people would tell you what's going on around you. If the people and the kids are out on the street when you're going through, it's okay. If there's nobody there you by golly be stopping and seeing what's up there. It's either an ambush or a roadside bomb and we cleared a lot of bombs over there that way. So you just have to pay attention to what's going on. And then what made you want to watch a movie like Apocalypse Now being back in the US? I wanted to see what they wrote about us. The one in Hue- I was in Hue the same timeframe that film was about. One night, we were the main line of defense for anybody behind us and one night we were told "nobody shoot, nobody breathe. We're going to let everybody past and they're going to catch them up in a box canyon and take them out." So, about two o'clock I hear all this ying yong. Oh and the guys are going up North. Hardcore NVA (North Vietnamese Army). You got him in a box canyon and for the next hour, B-52 bombers rain 500-pound bombs in that area. And to this day I cannot stand rolling thunder because that sounds like a bombing run. And, you know, they cleared them out. but it's just like, don't sneeze, you know, or something's going to happen to come back at you. We've been in enough firefights that, you know, we could handle ourselves. The Seabee motto is "we build ,we fight" and the Vietnamese are going to be learned we can fight just as good as we can build, we can give.

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So, how did how did you feel after you saw the portrayal in the movies? Apocalypse Now was pretty good until Charlie Sheen gets up into Cambodia. Once they leave the river and they get up into the river up in the Cambodia where it starts getting really far-fetched. That was just somebody's because he's going after, well, he's going after a Colonel that went rogue. So he's going up to bring him home. But once he gets up that passed at River into the other stuff there's lights everywhere. Across the river is just, it's a little far-fetched. There was not any lights anywhere on any river and we, we stayed where we were. And so it got a little far-fetched, The one about Hue, it was pretty true all the way through it really was. And then Green Berets is another one. They wrote about the Green Berets and then John Wayne played in one called The Fighting Seabees and that was pretty true, you know, all the guys in the service have been told if you park something, don't expect it to be there the next morning, because the Seabees will come strip it. And we did. We got a lot of parts that way. And then, what aspects of the movies specifically seem least accurate from your experience? The ones that missed it, Apocalypse. Now towards the end, Green Berets is pretty much straight through all the way through, so, you know, yeah, it was. But the Fighting Seabees, these were guys who volunteer to go or during World War Two to Guam, They weren't militarized yet. They couldn't have any weapons. So John Wayne got them through a school, got them weapons, and they went over and were able to protect what they could But yeah, that was pretty true all the way through.

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The thing is- what is it they say, "the impossible we can do now." And takes a little longer to do the other stuff. We walked in the country three months behind schedule. We got done on our second trip. We were six months ahead of schedule. First trip through, we had to go through our company, up to the regional, back down to the other company. While I need a plumber over here next week. Well, we didn't get it. We had the chain of command up and back down to like a month. Second time. Now we aren't doing this, Tom, I need a plumber over here tomorrow. I can be there Thursday, cool. So we skipped all the bureaucratic crap and just we walked out six months ahead of schedule. We didn't get any credit for it. Officers got all the credit. But hey, long as we got our job done and we felt good about ourselves. That was it. Is there anything that you wish would be shown in these movies that you feel like they don't touch on that would help give people a better understanding of what it was really like. If like. If like. If like. If like. If like. If like. If like. If like. If like. If like. If like. If like. If like. If like. If like. If I could change a movie? I would try to make it a little more truthful about what happened. Good morning, Vietnam was another one with Robin Williams. And in there, they had a sapper go into a bar and blow herself up and the kid that was Robin Williams friend tried to keep him out of the bar because he knew something was going to happen. So there was a lot of that. There was a lot of roadside bombs going off. They showed some of it but they didn't show a lot of them- didn't show it at all.

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Why do you think that people who did not serve wanted to see these movies, maybe people who chose to evade their service? Say again, please? Why do you feel like people who chose not to serve in the war still wanted to see these movies? We come home, we were pretty tender. Anything set us off and we didn't want to see something like that. I didn't see a lot of shoot-'em-up movies when I came home. Fact, I didn't watch hardly any movies when I came home. I was trying to go to college and get some degrees and better myself. So there wasn't a- not a lot, and I was having to work to provide for, you know, three kids and a wife. So that was my concern was college. You're going to get degree to better myself and then provide for family for the kids and the wife for, you know, household food and stuff.

00:27:22.000 - 00:31:56.400

So I did that for three, four years and it was after that I got into watching the movies. You kind of pick one, It's okay It's not bad, and then you know, they tend to get a little worse as they got along but you know, you just you've kind of calmed down, you're not sitting on the edge of your seat the whole time, driving down the road someplace. I had a buddy we went fishing a real tight curve to get on the freeway, really really tight. Well this camp helicopter had rockets and machine guns in it for marijuana. And I hear- you hear this chopper, you know, exactly where it's at. I looked up and it's frame right dead center in my window. I'm laying on the ground. I bailed out of the truck. He's screaming at me, he stopped the truck. But what the hell is that chopper? He goes. "Oh, yeah, I heard it too," but it's just something that- right now, if I hear a helicopter, I can tell you exactly where he's at, where he's going to come through the brush and trees, or whatever its just that. The sound you'll never forget, you know, it's like growing up as a kid. You hear a rattlesnake. That's a sound you're not going to forget you know exactly where they're at. So it's just that's the way we all are. Anybody that has been over in country, and we've come against people that want to be- "I was in Vietnam" Oh you were? "Yeah." where at? "well, over at third marred." well third marred, It was down in southern Vietnam, not up towards the border. And these people all just want to be pretenders. They want to look big. We went to Camp Pendleton for our exercises, and we went to a bar and this kid had three ladies standing around him and he's talking big and I go, Where were you over there? "While I was in Vietnam." Wrong choice of words. The verbiage is in-country. And the verbiage now is in the sandbox. So people go to the sandbox. They don't go to Afghanistan, which is called the sandbox. Now, he said it and my buddy, and I we sat right there, and then we'd go to him, we pushed him and he said everything wrong. And we said well, third Marine Division was down South 1st, Marine Division was up in Hue. And he got this funny look on his face and the girls all walked away. You know, there's a lot of pretenders out there now, especially since people are giving them discounts for food and whatever they all want that benefit. Well, if you haven't served, you don't get to benefit the way I look at it. You're just a POS, to put it a politely, piece of crap. But you know, it's just the way it is. Yeah, do you think that these movies have created a positive memory of the Vietnam War for those who served? For a lot of people, I think so. For the most part, most of movies did. But there are parts of it that were way out of line. I mean, and people watch Apocalypse Now, they go, that's crazy. Well, up until the point where they hit the river going up further into Cambodia things are pretty cool. You know, it's pretty much right on. we had USO (United Service Organization) shows, Bob Hope came over, a lot of females were flown in to entertain their troops. I never saw one of them, never, but that happened a lot. And when the show was over the girls spent the night with the officers and then they left the next day. Hm, you know that we have Red Cross nurses come in every now and then you hear on a PA system, "nurses in the barrack compound in 20 minutes, everybody button up, get straight" and then it comes to it and they just check on us to make sure we're okay, you know. Red Cross packages or whatever it was. It was one of those things that I saw twice and that was it but there was a lot of it coming in- people taking care of each other.

00:31:58.500 - 00:33:27.200

Do you remember listening to any music in Vietnam that influenced your experience, or do you remember listening to any specific music while you were in Vietnam that you associate with that experience. I'm not understanding. So at the time, there were some anthems created about Vietnam. Do you remember ever hearing any of those? I don't remember seeing any shows over there. Yeah, I was out in a brush, we spent a month on an island off the coast of Vietnam. Putting in radio for Europe, control tower pads. So we dug forty by forty foot holes and fill them of rebar and concrete and then they were to come in and put the towers later. There's one Island that we were on, we had five army guys guarding us because we lived out their in tents and they went hiking when we were working. They come back and said we found a cache of weapons in this old volcano, that was it. We were gone. They jerked us out of there so fast our heads were spinning because that was a VHC resort on our island place. They'd send them out there for relax relaxation. Well, they jerked us out of there like hundreds of weapons were cashed in this volcano, all kinds of them. So we were gone.

00:33:28.000 - 00:34:39.210

Yeah, and then are there any aspects of the experience of those who fought in Vietnam that you think have never really been addressed in popular culture? Yeah. PTSD is finally getting known about. Agent Orange. It was years years before somebody finally started getting authorization for Agent Orange. Agent Orange was a defoliant. They spray it, within a matter of days there is not a leaf on that tree. While we're out there going through the brush, we're going to do stuff were involved the whole time. My wife's going to come in and listen too, if that's okay. Oh, you been listening? I can't hear sometimes. Yeah, he's hard of hearing. Ah, okay, so he's not hearing like the music question you asked him. That's okay, It was just at the time- Yeah, it's okay. We can move past that, he was actually just giving a really great answer about-

00:34:39.600 - 00:34:58.200

Oh Yeah. Yeah, the music over there usually, all old, whiny crying country-western. That was it. So that's what you associate with Vietnam? Yeah, old country, western whining and crying. I didn't know that one. Okay, go ahead.

00:35:03.000 - 00:36:23.570

So why do you think it took so long for some of those things to be addressed? The government kept denying it. They didn't want to pay for us to be fixed. You know, we went over there we help them. We took care of the country, and when we come back they didn't want to- There's a lot of homeless military veterans on the street. And now they're taking all these refugees and people that they are letting in, putting them on old military bases and they're living there. While the veterans are in the street living on a street living on the sidewalk trying to find food. Why can't they put them on the bases? Why can't they feed them like they are feeding these illegals? Take care of your homeboys first and ladies. When other people they have out there leave them out there, send them back across the borders. So immigration for me, if you come in and do it right, it's good. But if you come in as a illegals and they're treating you like kings, you get phones- no. No, I don't buy that. Why do you think Vietnam has become such a popular topic in the US still, after all these years? Why is Vietnam so popular, what?

00:36:24.500 - 00:38:18.100

Yeah, so given how much time has passed since the conflict ended, why do you think it's still so talked about in the US? We lost over 58,000 people over there, eleven of them were nurses. That's something that that Vietnam Wall, is a sore spot for everybody in the United States. We had one come into Santa Rosa. I was pulling guard duty at night just to be there because I know at night when nobody is there, the Veterans will come in and look at that Wall. You know, there's one lady showed up about midnight and she's standing there just crying her eyes out. I'm like, you have somebody on the wall? She goes. "No." Okay, what's the deal? She goes "you can never understand what 58,000 plus names look like." If you ever get a chance in DC, you go to that black wall. Very humble, very quiet. Not a lot of partying, screaming, and jumping up and down. It is a very somber wall. I almost got put in jail. We went to the wall and these Asian kids were picking up the teddy bears and stuff and we were doing cheesecakes, a guy was taking pictures. I say put your stuff down, leave it alone or else. Kid says, "or else what?" I said I'll put you into a mud puddle of blood in a heartbeat. Whoa. Wife at the time hollered at me and I told her to shut the hell up and pretty soon the guard showed up and he escorted them off the place but that's a really reverent somber wall if you get a chance. You live there, go see it. Yeah, absolutely.

00:38:20.400 - 00:40:40.250

Most guys that go there break down and cry. I cried for an hour on the first time I saw. And that one time I went there was an orange spot on the Wall. I said, who in the hell is painting the Wall? Orange spot turned out to be one of my friends that was killed over there. It wasn't an orange spot but it caught me of drop to that spot and I put my hand on his name and cried for half hour because I lost him. I lost four, five buddies over there due the different circumstances. Do you remember how you felt when they first said they were going to make a memorial? I thought it'd be a good thing. It's something that needs to be done. All the other branches of service wars have them. But see, we never really understood how many people were killed over there. You hear news releases, "aw we killed 557 PC today," huh? Well, if you kill that many everyday, pretty sure there's nobody in Vietnam to kill, you know you start doing the mental numbers. So the news was skewed pretty bad for it. It's like how do you kill that many people for twenty days in row and there's still people left in Vietnam? No, no, you can't and then women and children to them are nothing. We couldn't bomb anywhere near a hospital or a church. That's where they put all their weapons stashes, in hospitals and churches because we couldn't touch them. Vietnam, the life of the people is negligible. No money if I killed a guy or ran over him accidentally. I wouldn't be charged. But if I ran over one of their cows it was five hundred dollars to pay for that cow. So they hold life as inconsequential for what's going on. Yeah, but their animals- we killed one one night and we had to pay five hundred dollars for it.

00:40:42.700 - 00:42:23.700

And then, so before the Washington Memorial, the black Wall was officially announced, did you have any hopes as to what you wanted it to look like or incorporate? No. I know I did want to go there. I did what's called Run for the Wall. It's a bunch of motorcyclists and it's like in it's twenty-fifth or twenty-sixth year and all these guys get together and they ride all the way across United States. We stop at church's, VFW's (Veterans of Foreign Wars), wherever it takes us. Ten days. And then we got there, we did picture on Abraham Lincoln steps, you know, Thousand, Eleven Hundred of us and then we walk over to the Vietnam Wall from there. And we were chitter chattering and talking and having fun and picking on each other. Well, we got within a half, a mile of that wall. Everything just shut up. Everybody just looked up and you could feel the tensions rise as the closer you got to the wall. You know, and as we came in you can see the whole wall from the little guy to the middle and back over. And it just like- and I don't want to go down there. I know I got buddies down there. We're all in tears. And yeah, I went three times to that wall but I still tear up every time. I want to go back again. Take my wife and have her see it. But yeah, it's a tough wall to look at. Do you remember hearing anything about the person who was picked to design the memorial?

00:42:25.200 - 00:43:33.800

The designer on that thing- It was a Vietnamese lady designed it. We know about her and she won the right to design it because she submitted it and it's awesome. I mean we did a lot over in Vietnam that was good for the people, you know, we built up what we could. And so I felt like we did our job over there that was worth giving and taking care of and it wasn't just always destroying or killing. It was- we were producing, you know, we built bridges. We built road wood, we put culvert under the roadway so it wouldn't washout in the monsoon season, you know, it's one of those things we felt good about. And you said that you you like the memorial in D. C- Do I like the memorial? Yes. I do like it. Yes. Have you heard anything about some of the controversy surrounding it from the perspective of veterans who don't like it?

00:43:39.400 - 00:47:11.700

Not in the circles that I run in. I know there are people out there that disrespect it. You know, there's guards out there 7/24. So somebody tries to do something to it it's not going to happen. They're gone before they- like those two girls and the boy that were doing stuff and they were hauled off right away. Most of the memorials in Vietnam are covered by some kind of a guard system. You know, and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, they're out there 7/24. I don't care if it's a hurricane blowing. Now they have a complete set of females that are with the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. They just got notoriety on Facebook here the other day. There were three of them that were doing training to become a tomb guard. It is the hardest thing in your life you'll ever do. No smoking and no cussing. No sex for the whole time you're there. I just- it's strictly spit and polish. I mean, it's- it's a hard duty to be there like that but it's an honor to do that and you get a pin you can wear it wherever you go as a tomb of the soldier. What aspects of the monument in DC do you think make up a good monument? The whole thing because it goes from the early years all the way up until the really active years and then back down based on how many people were killed. So when you get to the center, I think it's facing east and west. That way and it's on an angle in and an angle out. So you walk down and you walk back up. You can't see it on the back side of it. All you see is a grassy knoll you don't see the monument at all. But if you come at it from the other side, very breathtaking and the three soldiers out there they have the thousand-yard stare. We all had that the whole time we were in Vietnam. It's like, what's next, where we at? What are we doing, your heads on a 360 swivel looking for issues, especially if you were grunt out in the field. You know, Army patrols are pretty much wiped out wherever they went. Marine patrols were respected. Me as a SeaBee, we can have a firefight three, four-hundred feet down the road from us. They wouldn't touch us, They would wipe out the guys, the army or the Marines up there but they wouldn't leave us alone because they- we were building up the country. I think that's why they left us alone. Even though we got rocketed a few times and mortared a few times. And the time we got hit real bad. They were trying to get to the 8-inch guns behind us to knock them out. Because those guns fire at forty, fifty miles out to that brush and they were doing called H&I rounds, harassment introductory. They just plot them out there. Just To keep Charlie off balance. Have you been to any memorials in other places around the country?

00:47:13.100 - 00:49:06.550

A couple- three of them. We went back to Washington and the Korea Monument over there is really spooky because they're all like silver or clear and they're in a field of snow and the eyes follow you wherever you go. It's one of those, oh my god. I've been to one in Illinois for the sandbox. They got one there by the river. I've been to a few of them. I want to see the one in Colorado that the guy put in the middle of a field. He stacked up all these granite blocks and it's all about Vietnam. I did the one in Cottonwood. It's about Vietnam and it has cages. It's got a guy in it and it's got- shows the different things that happened over there, punji sticks. Punji sticks is what were under trap doors when you put your foot on and it fell through and impaled you with bamboo spikes. They were coated with human excrement so you was blood poisoned right away. So, that was one. That was really a hard one to kind of get through the first time because it was really, really real for what was going on. The guy's, a Vietnam vet, and he's an artist, and he's creating that whole little thing. So, go to Cottonwood. Yeah. Absolutely. Is there a specific Vietnam memorial that you think is the best representation of the war? A monument I think is the best? Yeah, between maybe the one in DC and some of the other ones you have seen.

00:49:10.500 - 00:51:32.160

The DC one is the best. They have what's called traveling walls. Some are the same height all the way around, some are up and down, they are as close to what a lot of people are going to get to that Vietnam Wall. It's a traveling wall and it's called the Wall that Heals which is good. A lot of vets have been like I said I did guard duty at night, veterans show up, I talk to them and they have to start talking about what's going on in order to heal. If you don't talk, you're not going to heal. This kid that I killed, I'd been home for two years. I was having full-color surround sound nightmares. "Well, you don't dream in color," bull crap. I dream in color and this lady was doing a thing called- It's a white bar. I forget what it's called. You watch this light, go back and forth. eighteen inches. She was just starting it and she said, "I'll take the present. I'll take the past. I'll put them together and I'll stick them in a 30 foot, deep concrete box and put twelve inches steel on top of it." So I don't see the kid anymore in the sense of what I did to him. I see him in the village. I have no worry of who he is but I don't see the carnage I created. He was the catalyst for the other five or six people that I took out. Well one was a Vietnamese coming at us attacking Camp. I had a twelve gauge shotgun. They hop them up on drugs and they come and nothing stops them. First round slow. Second one drop three four and five you're not getting up now. You're down. You're going to stay down. So that's the way we lived over there. It just was something that we got accustomed, especially the second time we got hit three or four times. Why do you think it's important that the war be commemorated? Say again, please?

00:51:33.200 - 00:53:53.000

Why do you think it's important that the Vietnam War should be commemorated in the US? It never was a war, but always been a police action to all of us. Never has been declared a war like World War Two or World War One, those were declared wars. These are all skirmishes or police actions. A friend of mine- couple of my friends, their families were on flight seven hundred and thirty-nine going over to Vietnam, early 62, and they were all specialists for communications and stuff. The plane went down after it left Guam. It disappeared, completely blown to nothing. So the families are trying to get their names on the Vietnam Wall and the government is saying no we won't do it. Their supply plane left out of Alaska, it disappeared. It was blown up into nothing. So ninety-three people, eleven crew on a Flying Tigers flight seven hundred and thirty-nine You can look it up on the internet- are gone and the government's just gone, "I don't see it, I don't hear it." Like the three monkeys. But in my way of thinking they were just as much in Vietnam as I was. Do you think that access to the internet has changed the way that people are learning about Vietnam? Internet access has solved a lot of issues with the Vietnam War, people are seeing what was there, they can see things and with Facebook people are posting a lot of pictures and stories from Vietnam. I found a buddy that was in Vietnam the same time I was in, the same crew I was on, I did, I forgot about him, you know. So the internet has been really good as far as trying to bring understanding to what's going on in the world. Sometimes it's a little ridiculous with what's out there but for the most part with the Vietnam War- the conflict, was- it's good I think.

00:53:54.700 - 00:57:19.280

How would you like people in today's society to remember those who served in Vietnam War, other than the Wall. Just all remember us as brothers and sisters and we lived the life and we did what we could to make you free in your home country. You know, build more monuments. A lot of states are building monuments to the different conflicts and wars which is a good thing. National cemeteries are getting filled up with everybody that's passing on now. A lot of your private cemeteries have a service-connected area in the cemetery where vets are entombed or interned and they have monuments, little kiosks, you know, about eight foot square six, eight foot high. They got blocks or bricks in there with all the guys name from the different wars that conflicts that were in that area. So, that's a good thing. It's going to get recognition. You know the one I went to even had some Civil War people in there. It was really really cool. But you know it just recognizes us for what we did, you know, and we had a tough job. Now, we went over as stranger's, we all came back as brothers and that's the way we look at it. Do you participate in any events or activities to help educate people about Vietnam? For years I flagged up at funerals, homecomings for guys coming home. Welcome home coming through the airport. When I got dumped on with the poop and pee I said never on my watch again is somebody going to come home without being welcomed home or honored. So I carried flags in the back of my truck. I flagged up cemeteries, funeral homes. I've gotten out of it because of Covid. I belong to the PGR, Patriot Guard Writers for years. Now I belong to what's called America Warriors of California and it's the same thing. We've gone down- my friend Chief lives in Hanford, so I've gone down to Hanford from here which was five hours from there. We picked up the family drove all the way down into San Francisco to bring home their loved one that came home in a casket. So him and I have done that three or four times, just me and him going down. So you try to say their names, you try to keep everything in perspective and in front of people, you know, it's not something that, "oh well thirty people died today, oh well, no big deal." Well if its thirty veterans it's a damn big deal. Now we're keeping you safe. And you having the ability to talk to me via this method. And you're learning. Are you doing this for a thesis or are you-

00:57:20.900 - 01:01:42.000

This is for a- I'm a graduate student so this is part of a project I'm doing with veterans, but it's building off of a project I did a couple years ago which was a paper I wrote about memorials for Vietnam, as well as its general memory. Seabee's are few and far between, very few and far between, there's not many of us at all. But we're doing the biggest and best job in the world. I got a buddy who's a Seabee up in- I've got Seabees buddies all over the place but we're not as many as the Marines, and the Army, and the Coast Guard and stuff like that. We're just a few and far between and we did the impossible for so long. Are there any methods that you think could be taken to make Vietnam even more so understood by Americans today? Probably publicize some more memorials that are going up. People don't know where they're at. They're all over the country. You know research, go see them check them out. Visit them understand what we did, you know? This one town, I think it's in Montana, lost seven kids to Vietnam. So they put up a monument in town for those seven kids. So it just you know, when you lose something like that, that's this small little town, that was half the male population at the time. So yeah, more monuments. Make it more aware, publicize it more. The truth about it not a kind of attitude. I mean, get down and get serious about it and publicize it more and put more out there. But if you go in depth study there's monuments everywhere throughout the United States force. Canada even have some for Vietnam because the Canadians were fighting over there. Korea sent Marines over there to fight, Australians were fighting over there. So it's not just Americans. It was Canadians, Australians, and Marines, from from the Korea. They were all over there, you know, doing the same thing. We were- the Korean Marines, if they caught gunfire, you could plant rice in that village the next day. They wiped out the whole village, gone. Everybody. So it- we had to live by the Geneva Convention, you know, we had to be shot at first. No, if he gets near me, he's going down especially if he's got a gun on me, you know, so we got attacked one night and we kept hollering for flares. They wouldn't give them to us. Told us to ceasefire. Well next day we went out and two sappers had come up to the line to bring in satchel charges. And we just happened to catch him before he got in. So, it was a dirty dirty conflict. It was their backyard. They knew every nook and cranny. We didn't, you know, it's like me going into your house for the first time. Where's the bathroom? This way? This way, this way. You know, and they had tunnel systems. They have hospitals in tunnels underneath the ground. They had living quarters buried underground. You know and it just like, ingenious little people. We had what we call tunnel rats. Had to go through the tunnels and eradicate anybody that was down there. So it was not a good thing. I was a big guy, couldn't have done that. I wasn't in the Army or the Marines but you know, I did what I did to- as a support person, you know, built bathrooms and buildings and churches and stuff over there.

01:01:43.000 - 01:04:05.900

Yeah, and then sort of as we come to a close if there was a message that you could pass on to younger generations about your time serving in Vietnam. What would you want them to know? Get off their dead asses and join the service. Become somebody. You know, "I need a safe room," for what? Just because I called you a name that's going to hurt your little feelings. No. No, you know, there's a thing going out that, my idea of a crying room was tear gas. We all had teargas indoctrination. Well, these guys are in their little rooms crying and when it the- they're not standing up and taking responsibility for life that we gave them. Now, they're just kind of gimme-gimme-gimme-gimme, you know. We earned our right to do what we did to do and I'm sorry, but there's no respect for us anymore. You know, the kids don't respect there mom and dad's. My wife daughter, her son, cusses are out and screams and calls her every name in the book. He did that to me one time he would be sitting on the floor wondering what the hell happened to him. You know I said something to my dad once and I was you know, two-car carport. I went from one corner to the other corner when I finally stopped rolling. What was that? "Well, you said something you shouldn't have so I just helped you" but yeah, they need to have a lot more respect for what's going on out there, especially with the soldiers nowadays, the men and the women doing their job. They're doing the jobs nobody wants and they're volunteering for it there not being drafted anymore. They're volunteering. You know, I've got friends of mine at work- My wife's granddaughter went over, spent three trips overseas. You know, now there's been more trips over there, less time each trip. What they're spending three or four trips over in a country like that? You know, some of them are pretty safe, some are in the middle of a war zone. So have respect for all your fighting soldiers, men and women, no matter who they are, and just respect is given respect is earned. You don't give me respect, you're not getting mine and that's for damn sure. But now I don't mind talking to you.

01:04:10.100 - 01:05:30.770

So as we wrap up, do you have any questions that you wish I would have asked you about? If I think of something I'll put them in an email to you. Well, I just want to thank you so much again for taking the time to speak with me today about your experiences in Vietnam. Your interview has been so helpful and valuable and it's going to be a really great addition to creating a better understanding of peoples service in Vietnam. Tiger's study was when Native Americans came home they were accepted as warriors. They were welcomed back into their tribe. White guys and anybody else came home we were not respected and they wanted nothing to do with us. They made it real hard for us to acclimate back into society. We kind of got a declassification or D. Whatever you want to call it. We came home which wasn't much, but the Native Americans, he felt were accepted back into society because they were warriors when they went off. My buddy lost a son to Afghanistan, and he was a warrior, they were classified as warriors. So maybe the aught to classify us all as warriors.

01:05:37.200 - 01:07:54.600

It's just one of those things you have to be careful what you're doing, you know, a lot of us still don't talk about it. A lot of therapy for a lot of people. You know, I just- the lady with the light- I can't think of the light bar, but it was a- she was starting it and I was one of the first ones to do it and it helped put that kid to rest when he was still there and that brought up the other six people. So I was dreaming of seven people every night, the kid was a catalyst for but now I don't see them. I have mostly peaceful nights. Every now and then something will flash. One movie that got me was- doggone it, About two pilots. Top Gun, when Goose died. When he got blown through the canopy I cried. I find myself crying a lot even on silly movies, "oh its a love movie," I don't care it. It grabs me. So yeah, more respect more acceptance of what we did, for who we are to do what we did for you guys. Yeah. but, you know, watch Apocalypse Now. There's a couple other ones that are out there. You know, the Fighting Seebees is about what we were and who we were. And- are you on Facebook? Yeah i'm on Facebook. Add me on Facebook. Look up my phone number, and I'll talk to you any time. And if I think of anything, I'll send you emails and I'll send you some more pictures. Yeah, that would be great. Thank you again so much for taking the time today to talk to me about everything. Its been really helpful.

01:07:55.400 - 01:08:01.100

I can talk about it know, for a few years ago no, it was a tough subject.