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Hello, my name is Joy Pierce. Today is November 18 2020. I am calling from my house and Stephens City and it is 1:03 in the afternoon. Could you please introduce yourself, Tim, and spell your name?

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My name is Tim Davis T-I-M D-A-V-I-S. And can you tell me where you're calling from? I'm calling from Falls Church, Virginia now. Okay. And do I have your permission to record this

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interview? Yes. Wonderful. All right, so can you tell me where you were born and when?

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I was born in Chicago heights, Illinois, in 1955, and lived there most of my life. Okay. Can you tell me your parents names and their occupations?

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James and Mary Davis. My dad was a--he worked in the steel industry, a steel laborer. And my mom was mostly a housewife, but she also had different positions in, it was basically a woodworking shop, but mostly a housewife.

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Okay, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood and growing up in Illinois? Growing up in Illinois was where I, of course, went to school and you know, basically was the emphasis of my

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life, really. It was very different, in terms of--I shouldn't say different, but basically, it was growing up in a all black community, where we had of course black churches and black schools and black community that basically kind of

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took care of themself. We worked--we were all basically working to survive and working to create and working to, you know, live. It was at that time, you know, in the early 50s 60s--not early 50s. I'm sorry they were the 60s. (chuckles)

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And basically it was all about, like, you know, we had fun, I guess you could say. I mean, we would stay up, you know, early in the morning and get up early in the morning, didn't have school and all day we would just be playing: ball, basketball,

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football, basketball, baseball, all those things that, you know, we did when there was no internet, and there were no things to do in terms of nothing but sports and activities outdoors. So, normal childhood.

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In terms of like, overall, black communities are very different from many other communities because it's basically in the Chicagoland area. So we did things, I will say rather quickly, you know, learning how to do things like catch the bus

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and catch the train and get around at a very young age, that was also part of growing up, you know, being able to survive in a city context or outside the city contacts that we were moving around a little bit. But it never kind of hesitated for us

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to stifle us in one place. We kind of kept moving, and it was kind of a normal thing to actually grow up where you learn how to do these things in the city where folks are--like in a suburb or in a rural area.

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Okay, can you tell me a little bit about school if you had any favorite teachers or subjects or anything like that growing up? Yeah. From first to eighth grade, we basically it

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was in one area so everybody knew each other. It was a small school, and, you know, normal classes and everything and so forth and had a wonderful teacher. He was a science teacher that I'm still in touch with Reg Weaver, who basically

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kinda took us, especially the boys, in his hands and kind of molded us in a lot of ways. All the teachers were like parents. As I mentioned, at that time, everybody kind of knew each other. People were taking seriously, the fact that

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everybody was kind of like a community and a family. And so there was no hesitation for teachers to call home or even come over your house and say that you were doing wrong, or you need to do this better or things along those lines, so it

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was a family atmosphere in our educational system, and at the same time it was also disciplinary, in terms of like, "Okay, you did wrong you know. Your parents are going to hear about it," just to kind of keep us moving forward. And so it

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was, it was great. And even to the point where we were, you know, playing basketball, and football and all those other sports as a kind of a strong unit. Reg Weaver had a big influence on me, as well as many other

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students, because he continued in education, and became the director of the National Education Association. So we always stayed in touch and inspired me actually, as I look back, to actually go into teaching, because I have 38

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years of teaching, as well as being an artist. So he was very inspirational, as well as a couple other teachers at that time. And then even moving forward to high school, found some teachers that were very inspirational and even pushing

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me into the art, you know, bridging the talent that I have and moving forward and saying, "Yeah, you can be an artist, and you can do this." One artist, one individual named John Cash, who was an artist in still Chicago and the area and he

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taught me how to draw and really, again, kind of took us under their wing and kind of continued to push while I was in my high school. So yeah, it was a good, it was good. It was one of the pluses that high school gave us is those teachers that

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cared. That's amazing. Can you tell me a little bit about your experience, transitioning from high school into college and where you went to college, what that was like?

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Well, yeah, high school was very interesting, because I should also say that back in the 60s and early 70s, when I was in high school, I graduated in '73... Yeah, gotta get my dates straight. (laughs) I guess it was '73, '74. Where

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we were basically products--I shouldn't say products but basically, we were in transition from segregation to integration. So the community that I lived in, because we had moved out in the suburbs of Chicago which are not far, like 20 minutes away.

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But we were transferred to a all white school at that particular time, and it caused a lot of problems within the community a lot of problems with just the transition of the community of integration. So the idea of, you know, we were going to one

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school, and it was my junior year, and that last year, they decided that, you know, our class was going to be the first to go to this school, which was located in South (unclear), Illinois. And my parents and the community was like, "Why, why do

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we have to go, we have to be bused so far away?" We had to actually go to another location and why can't white kids come to school that we have, and it was a whole lot of things. On the other side, the white parents there, didn't really

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want us in that community or want us coming to that community. So it was a real time of difficulty, especially in regard to integration especially in regard to, you know, discrimination and things like that. So we were faced with that

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going to school, especially at that year. So there was a lot of fights. There was a lot of problems. There was a lot of discrimination and racism that we experienced by going over there. We had to make sure that we caught the bus, honestly,

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back to our communities cause walking was not a option, getting a ride from there. So it was a very difficult situation for high school. However, on the plus side, they had the best facilities and the new school and they had all the facilities

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especially in like our art department. They had five teachers and you know, new kiln and jewelry making and painting lab and drawing lab. And so it also gave us an opportunity to actually see another phase of, you know, a new school and the

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things that were given to us. So we utilized them, at least I utilized that art department to actually grow and become an artist. And at the same time again, there was a teacher there who

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cared who--Don Cash was one that I met there who basically pushed me into moving forward with an art. So it was a plus to that. It was difficult, but it was a plus to that. And we were kind of like the trailblazers in that particular time to integrate

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that particular school. So that was a time of the Black Power movement, and also the civil rights movement for equity, which it still is, so kinda moves forward. But at that particular time, it was a very difficult time in terms of

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segregation and integration, and what community you can live in a community, you can't live in and what community school you can go to, and all those other elements that was, you know, causing problems.

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When you lived through that, did you sort of realize the significance of being one of the first classes to integrate the school? Oh, yeah, yeah, we all knew where we were at. We

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all knew what the, the situation was. Because prior to that, of course, you know, in 1968, Martin Luther King died, and there was, of course, from 1955, to '68, was, you know, really the civil rights movement. And, of course, growing up in that

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time zone, we saw so many things that were unequitable, so many things that weren't right, or so many things that was against us. And not only just in the Chicago, Illinois area, but also everywhere in the United States. So we saw people getting jailed,

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getting hit, and riots and all those things. So, yeah, you know, we didn't want to go over there, we didn't want to go in that particular environment or the possibility of whatever environment. But we were ready to go into that environment in

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terms of, yes, this should happen and this is kind of the steps that we need to take, because there were, again, integration that was happening throughout the land, the nation in terms of people who were, you know, making the sessions on

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individuals who are integrating schools, and not just black individuals, but also minorities in terms of Asian and Hispanic and many other cultures and many other ethnicities that were here in this country.

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So yeah, we were definitely aware of where we were going, what we were faced with, and what we needed to do and work really hard I guess you could say the challenge. And it taught us a lot. It taught us a lot about people in life, you know,

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the, the differences of opinions and so forth. And then I have to say that overall, it's been worth the time. Once we got past a certain point, everybody connected and everybody got together and everybody worked hard to be one within the

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school. And I was wrestling at the time. That was my sport. And, and it was great to actually meet so many new wrestlers, people who were not, you know, of the same skin tone, black, and the same culture. And we learned from each other. So

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yeah, it was it was an interesting time. And I'm glad that I went through it. You know, they were problems. There was fighting, there was issues, but we got through it and we kinda set the way for others to follow.

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That's amazing. I feel like after, like going through something like that you have to just, you know, think that you could do anything, you know, dealing with that in high school at such a young age. I can't imagine. Can you tell me a

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little bit about your decision after graduation and thinking about what you wanted to do and picking schools and that sort of thing for college? Yeah. So, I was the first in my family to go to

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school. There was five of us. We really didn't think about school in that particular way. I mean, school period, because it was difficult, it was expensive. And, you know, it was not something that in terms of like, "Okay, prepare yourself for

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college. No, prepare yourself for a possible job somewhere, for possible going into"--many of my friends went into the service at that time. And for college, so we kind of had those two choices in terms of what would you do after school. And

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so a lot of people did not go to college, because the difficulty of getting there and the cost factor and quite frankly, for me, my grades were, you know, my grades weren't good. I took the SATs and all other things and did very well. But it was also a

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thing where you know, as my father worked, he was like, "You know, I don't know, if I'll be able to afford to actually send you to the school or this school." So we had to actually (inaudible) and go from there.

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So, I went to a community college, and worked at that particular time. I didn't have that opportunity to just like, Okay, I'm going to go to apply to these 12 schools and see what happens. (chuckles) It was much more difficult for me--and all

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of us, it was. So Community College was fine, it was another growing part. And it was also a way to get serious about college, and also a little way to get more involved with art and improve my grades and all those other things. I'd have to

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say at that particular time, I also got married young. I had gotten married and had my first child, back in '73, when I graduated--'74 and started a family. So that was a perfect opportunity for me to, you know, when I say "get serious," I mean

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this is already happening very quickly. So working and going to college and working and going to school was my routine, and you know, doing it the best I can for all those things is where we were going.

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So as far as college, transitioning to community college, and after that two years preparing myself for another university, and I went to Eastern Illinois University, and thank goodness got a scholarship to go there. And

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that helped quite a bit. In terms of, you know, I was still majoring in art so I decided that early on, that senior year in high school, that I was going to go into art, and I improved my grades, improved my subject matter and and did get a

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scholarship to go down to Eastern Illinois University, Charleston and finish out my two years there. From that particular point I got a fellowship to go to the University of Illinois to also study with Frank Gallo and I was

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interested in sculpture at the time and I decided I was going to go into education. Again, bringing my children from Chicago area to downstate and having them grew up in a whole other environment was also a big change. At that time, I had two

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children. I have three total. And we made it work. You know, we work hard and in college and had some very good opportunities for us at that time as well. Wow, that's, I can't imagine doing all of that with a

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family. That's amazing. (coughing) So can you tell me a little bit about transitioning out of school and starting your career in education and all of

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your work with art and sort of what that transition looked like? (coughing) Excuse me. Oh, I'm sorry.

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One second. (coughing) Okay we're better. Um, so yeah, going to school and deciding to go into education was what I (unclear) to do. And I like that. I mean, I think I always knew--(coughs) Excuse me.

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You're totally fine. You can hear okay? Mhm yeah, you're good. I think I always knew that I wanted to educate because

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I think that's an important part of growing and teaching as many people as possible. So that was also something I wanted to do. So, in school, I did both, you know, undergraduate and graduate work, I always had classes, kind of a double major education, as

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well as art, which work really well together, because I enjoy both parts enjoyed the scholarship behind, you know, what is art, why did you do art, and, you know, the aesthetics behind it, art history behind it, and then I also love to just

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create. And so I started to do more painting and drawing, and that was kind of the two dimensional aspect that I was kind of creating. And so when I got out of college, I did you get a job

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right away as a teacher in the area, you know, near where I lived in Champaign-Urbana. And taught there for five years, you know, going back and forth and teaching at the middle school, the junior high school they called it then, They then move

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me up to the high school level, which was fine, and I enjoyed constantly teaching, and I felt fortunate to be able to teach in my field of art, as well as create art. And so that's kind of how I worked and at the same time, you know, having a family

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and moving forward within the family dynamics was--I always practiced art. I was never going to not practice it and enjoyed making it even though I was a teacher. And even though I'd spend a lot of time in classroom, one thing that was

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for sure was that synergy, or both parts of those have always been kind of a quick connection for me. I do like to, I guess, give assignments or give students challenges and even challenge myself to that challenge that I'd already given

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them. So that's kind of the fun part as well. So I always kind of, you know, grew with the students as, you know, we've moved along in the educational process. That's really cool. It's kind of kind of like a

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practice what you preach kind of thing. Yes, exactly. Exactly. That's awesome. That was a nice. That's always been nice. So

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yeah. Education is excellent. And also, again it gave own my children an opportunity to see and be part of an educational process, as well. Mhm, can you tell me a little bit about when you

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moved to the east coast. I know you're calling from Falls Church, and you've done some work in DC and that sort of thing, but I'm not sure when you made that move? Okay. Yes, so one thing that I did when I was in

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the community of Champaign-Urbana, where I lived, and also teaching and creating, that is I formed a group called Symmetry, which was kind of my brainchild in terms of, I wanted to do more for the community. So I banded together with some

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artists, not only visual artists, but musicians and theater and also poets and writers. And we're all black educators, as well as artists living in this community that wanted to actually go out more in the community as well as give

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a sense of we are--our voice can be heard, I guess you could say--and it still is that's when I say Champagne-Urban (unclear) spent many years there, but there was still not a large amount of black students that was there. So we were kind of

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getting lost within the community, not (unclear) within the community. But in terms of what artists can do, or what we can do. So I formed this group, Symmetry. We was a nonprofit, we basically moved around in different communities, different

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locations and showed our art so it was a presenting organization. So through that, I wrote a grant to come to the National Endowment for the Arts here in Washington, DC, where I wanted

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to study and wanted to actually, you know, get more involved with the arts. And so they gave me a fellowship actually to come here for I guess it was six months to Washington to study with the National Endowment for the Arts, which was here actually, but

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interesting enough, it was located in what they call the Trump Towers shopping building and hotel right there on Pennsylvania Avenue. And you may know, is the National Endowment for the Arts and Humanities. It was there for many, many years,

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which was formed, I think that was in 1963 by Lyndon Baines Johnson, who was the president at that time for artists, organizational art administration to administer grants to artists and people in organizations. So I was

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thrilled, I was like, "Okay, I gotta go, this is a wonderful opportunity." And so that transition, I came here first and got a place here in Washington and then moved my family out to this direction

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here. I want to say that's in '78. No, I'm sorry, that was '80. Graduated from college in '78 so it must have been early 80s that I moved out here, and, and worked for the endowment, National Endowment as a fellowship. And they awarded me

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another year stay, to work with some presenting organizations and also do some site visits and be an administrator there in the expansion arts program, which was run by A.B. Spellman, who is still living in the Washington community who is a writer, and a

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poet. And the idea behind the expansion arts was to expand the arts to communities that normally don't have the arts. And that was black communities, Hispanic communities, American Indian communities, Chinese communities, and give granting

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organizations within those communities funding so they can actually continue to move forward within their communities, whether it was a museum or gallery or arts organization, art centers, and they were all over the nation.

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So I had an opportunity to work with many organizations, many artists at that time, and that's when the National Endowment was thriving especially because there was so many people coming in and out of Washington you know, they had the humanities

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there as well as the arts and they had the music program and musical theater program and visual arts they had dance department, and they were all on different floors. So you get a chance to meet dancers and artists and theatre people so it

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was a really wonderful experience that just kind of working there and the energy that was coming in and out parts, artists (unclear) everything that was happening in the arts at that time. So I enjoyed that. And so yeah,

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that's what I did for a few years and got me kind of moving into the direction of working with an art administrator. And understanding I guess, the importance of art at that time. That's so amazing. That sounds like so much fun

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honestly. Yeah it was fun. Where did you go after your work there? Well, I stayed here. I'm still here in the Washington

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area. I've lived here--I mean, when I say I stayed here after that. I got a position working for it was called DC arts at the time. I guess, (unclear) it was an organization that was funded through the DC Commission on the Arts and Humanities, as well as

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the DC Unemployment Services. And the goal of that organization, our administrator was to fund again, organization, but more or less people within those organizations for jobs and readiness for the arts. I thoroughly enjoyed that as well.

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And it was kind of a good segue, actually, for what I learned about expansion arts and about the arts to be an organization within Washington that would help artists. So in that organization, what we would do was hire artists, you know, the

00:31:00.590 - 00:31:12.140

whole gamut of artists, dancers, theater, and so forth, our administrators to work in art organizations, for companies, and they would get from companies that need artists, whether they're graphic artists, or what have you. And they would

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pay half of the salary and the funding source that we were going through the Department Unemployment Services and the commission, they would pay the other half. And so my job was to find a worksite, hire the position,

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hire the artists or the person to work at that particular worksite, monitor the worksite, as well as the artist, kinda keep things moving for a period of maybe three months, six months, or it could be a year with the hopes that the artists

00:31:42.260 - 00:32:01.610

will be hired after that. So we're trying to get jobs for artists. And it worked, it was a great situation, because we were able to find work sites and position people and in there and after that the position remained and stayed. And I also ran the

00:32:01.610 - 00:32:22.970

mural program here in Washington for many years. Washington had--it's kind of the first mural program that was hiring artists to work with students and youth, you know, to work on buildings, and, again, find a space, find a building, find a

00:32:23.000 - 00:32:38.120

place, hire the artists, and the artists would actually work with students and new college students and bring them all together, and make these wonderful murals. And again in that position I was getting the space and hiring the

00:32:38.120 - 00:32:55.790

artists and that was also a lot of fun, nice to see those things, you know, come to life. And so I worked for that organization for about five or six years before the funding kind of ran out. They also had a strong summer youth program that

00:32:55.790 - 00:33:20.630

I think is still available where Washingtonians are able to apply for jobs and work with organizations. Our emphasis was just the arts and trying to make artists get positions and jobs. And so that worked very well. And from that particular point

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after the funding went out, I decided to go back into teaching. But before that--I have always come up with the organization or something that I wanted to on my own. So from Symmetry, which had

00:33:39.230 - 00:33:57.650

folded after I left Champaign-Urbana, coming here, looking further down from that particular point, working for an arts organization, Arts DC, and the commission. I also had a group that I work with called Metropolitan Art Consultants,

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that I formed actually along the way, which was kind of my organization. Again, it wasn't a nonprofit, but my goal was to actually try to get artists sales, try to get artists again working in the public area, especially with large mural

00:34:22.520 - 00:34:35.990

programs and so forth. And it kind of came about because people would ask me, you know I was still working as an artist, and they would ask me, "Do you know any artists who do landscapes? Do you know artists who do this?" "Yeah, I do know

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so artists who do that." And so I was kind of like the bridge between the artists and the buyer. And so I said, "Well, let me try to make a little bit of an organization out of this." Because I knew many artists at that time and I knew people were

00:34:48.860 - 00:35:08.330

buying art and I'm like, okay, so let me try to merge these two together. And so I work with that as well as working with RCC and Moving forward back to teaching. And then I started teaching here in Fairfax County part time and then working in my

00:35:08.330 - 00:35:18.080

organization and raising my family full time. Wow. So that's kind of how things kind of evolved in that particular realm.

00:35:19.760 - 00:35:37.040

Now, that is like so much. You're so busy. Wow. Um, so can you tell me a little bit about your time teaching at FCPS and what you like about that? I know you said you taught for 38 years so I feel like that's a big chunk of your life.

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Yeah. So teaching, of course, was, like I said, it's something that I felt like I really liked and wanted to do. So it was you know a big part of my life. So started teaching in Illinois, of course, and then grew from Illinois here. I don't

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know if I said that earlier. But yeah, sorry, I taught five years in school. Mhm. But when I moved here, want to do more education,

00:36:11.720 - 00:36:29.060

more other things then went back into teaching. So I taught in middle school, and then moved in high school, of the open high school. For many years, it was interesting, because at that particular time, things are still unfolding. Art, for

00:36:29.060 - 00:36:46.220

instance, like, the graphics program, or the computer graphics stereo, which was kind of a new endeavor that hasn't been around for a long time. But I was very interested in that aspect of teaching, there's art painting, drawing, you know, all

00:36:46.220 - 00:37:04.070

the disciplines. And then that came about, and I started taking classes in the graphics field. And at that particular time, you know, there was no department for graphics, so it was a part of the art department. So the school I taught at was Oakton

00:37:04.070 - 00:37:25.100

High School, and I kind of institutionalized part of that, coming into that particular school, not only me, but it was other teachers that wanted to put it in their schools as well. So I taught classes and built up the graphics program there and I

00:37:25.100 - 00:37:41.150

really enjoyed kind of the new thing that was kind of happening at that time, which was Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator was starting to come around. And things were (unclear), trying to get computers into the school, the art department, and that was

00:37:41.150 - 00:37:54.680

kind of a new challenge for me. So I enjoyed that aspect. I became the chairman of department and got involved with the school settings, with everything that school would offer from painting murals to you know, everything that was

00:37:54.680 - 00:38:12.860

there so I enjoyed that. However, it was not quite enough. You know, (chuckles) my children were getting older, they were in high school they were getting ready to prepare themselves for college and everything and so I had more

00:38:12.860 - 00:38:32.540

opportunities and more time and so I decided to open up a gallery and so that was from you know, Metropolitan Art Consultants, you know, had had its life and I decided that well, you know, I have some more energy to teach and I open up a

00:38:32.540 - 00:38:49.010

gallery so I connected with a couple of artists and we kinda got together and said, "Let's do this." And I had the idea of an international galleries. So I came up with I came up with International Visions Gallery, and got a couple of other

00:38:49.010 - 00:39:14.210

artists who were interested in the same concept that I was doing. And we got together and at first got a space and the same space that I was in for many years which was on Connecticut Avenue, which was a farrier which was ladies with

00:39:14.210 - 00:39:34.220

the society net, you know, furs were out at the temperature. And so we took over that building on 2629 Connecticut Avenue in one of the floors and made the renovations and opened up the gallery. Didn't know basically what I was doing,

00:39:34.220 - 00:39:51.110

didn't know how I was going to do it, but its connected with me to say, "Okay, I want to challenge myself to be better since I had, like I said, a good sense of business at the time and art. And then of course, education. So how can I connect

00:39:51.110 - 00:40:09.980

all three of those together? And this was the deciding factor. So I wanted to international word in there, the international art, international community because because it was in Washington. Washington was, you know, all the embassies were there, all

00:40:10.010 - 00:40:30.530

the educational sources, Endowments were there, there was many artists in institutions. So I wanted to have that influence and have that connection as well as helping black American artists that were in the community, as well as an

00:40:30.530 - 00:40:45.020

international scope. And I felt that there was a need--I knew it was a need--we all felt there was a need cause there was underrepresentational situation that was in Washington. There was many white galleries, but not galleries showing other

00:40:45.230 - 00:41:01.700

groups of works, black galleries, black art, some black art--I shouldn't say it was all white galleries. There were black galleries as well. There were galleries that was concentrating on just Hispanic art. And there was galleries and

00:41:01.880 - 00:41:15.080

spaces that were doing combination of things. But there still was not enough and so I wanted to bring artists from overseas and bring artists from places like Kazakhstan, Tokyo area, and Australia.

00:41:15.110 - 00:41:36.050

And that kind of excited me actually, "How can I do this (chuckles) kind of thing?" And so that's what I did, I began to organize artists, first of all that was in in states who were not necessarily, I don't want to say underrepresented, basically

00:41:36.050 - 00:41:51.110

wouldn't have an opportunity to show maybe because of the cultural differences, or if people were interested our society to start to cultivate that. And black American artists, of course, who were unrepresented, basically started

00:41:51.830 - 00:42:07.970

to bridge those gaps together. So I might have a artist from Australia and an artist from, you know, a black American artists from Washington or New York, and put those two artists together and see what the similarities are like. I was

00:42:07.970 - 00:42:21.710

always looking for those kind of things. And surprisingly so, there were definitely a lot of a lot of influences and a lot of similarities and a lot of stories, they were very connected in many ways, from different artists. And at the

00:42:21.710 - 00:42:46.700

same time, there was an artist from Bulgaria that might be an artist from from, say, American Indian, or white American or Spanish American, or what have you. So that was that was a that was my goal is to bridge the gap between the different cultural

00:42:46.700 - 00:43:07.070

aspects. And also that just kept going forward. So doing two things, I was teaching full time and working with a gallery full time with some help, of course, with other people that was involved. That was kind of my, my start and my baby, so to

00:43:07.070 - 00:43:22.880

speak, that kept going for the last, which is still going on right now. But the brick and mortar lasted for the last (unclear). I closed it in 2016. So we're still going as a consulting firm as well.

00:43:25.730 - 00:43:40.730

Wow. It seems like a lot of your work and these organizations that you're involved with, and the ones that you start, particularly your gallery? And was it Symmetry? The group that you started?

00:43:40.730 - 00:43:51.650

Yes. Um, it seems like a lot of your work is focused on sort of bridging these gaps and you know, starting these dialogues between, you know, different communities, different

00:43:51.650 - 00:44:08.150

individuals, and that sort of thing. Do you ever think about your work, particularly in those sorts of organizations as sort of your own kind of activism? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, my work, you know, if you

00:44:08.150 - 00:44:25.760

look at my work, particularly, and often, you know, from years and years ago, I always have been, I feel, an activists or saying something or creating something that's going to move or activate an individual to maybe, you know, have a dialogue

00:44:25.760 - 00:44:48.440

or have some understanding of a certain issue that's there and, and a purpose that's there. So with all the art that I've curated, and the shows that I've put together and curated from, you know, times with the gallery and so forth and Symmetry that

00:44:48.470 - 00:45:05.690

always, for me, there was always a sense of art that I was interested in showing was art that activates or art that says something. So that's always the case, that's always going to be the case as far as me curating an exhibition.

00:45:07.250 - 00:45:22.160

So with a gallery, I had the opportunity to do a lot of different things, not only just, you know, work here in the DC area, but I had an opportunity to travel to new parts of different areas, going to Africa, of course parts of

00:45:22.160 - 00:45:39.590

Europe and Paris, and I didn't get the chance to go to Australia, but that's on my list still. And I still want to go to different places, but I had a chance to actually go to visit artists and look for art in different places (unclear) I was

00:45:39.590 - 00:46:00.590

very interested in activating that side. But at the same time, we set up shows, you know, in different parts of the nation as well. So I used to go to the Black Fine Art Show, for instance. That was in New York, back in the 70s, in the 80s, in

00:46:00.590 - 00:46:23.420

the 90s, part of the 90s. Taking work to Puerto Rico, taking work to Los Angeles, and Chicago and setting up shows at different places, Miami, Basel, two, three years, four years, I think I've set up shows and Boots, and so forth there and the Boots in New

00:46:23.420 - 00:46:40.650

York. So I was definitely interested in taking art on the road. So that also gave me an opportunity to curate more curate not only just in Washington but other places. So that was also fun and it was also a learning experience. And

00:46:40.650 - 00:46:59.160

I'll continue to do some things along those lines. My own work kept going, of course, as I mentioned to you earlier, that I've never really stopped creating and still to this day. And so growing up in the 60s 70s, and seeing the civil rights

00:46:59.160 - 00:47:17.790

movement, the Black Power movement, and I use art, I feel, to activate and to create messages. And that's been my goal. And so most of my art that I do personally, and even some of the artists I've worked with, I like to create something that

00:47:17.820 - 00:47:36.930

can charge, can move, and grow to someone else, or even my students always have great critiques. And I used to do art, and they used to do art, and I used to activate students to do some incredible, incredible work and some incredible messages.

00:47:37.200 - 00:47:56.850

But we always basically had the talked about things that are dealing with politics and things that we're dealing with issues of things, I wanted them to get close to what they're wanted to say, whether it's--I don't have to go into all the problems that

00:47:56.850 - 00:48:15.320

we have, and all the issues that they face, living issues. And so my art has been pretty much dealing with the black community, the black students, especially black male, who basically, I feel, in many ways have been targeted, many of the

00:48:15.740 - 00:48:38.420

statistics of individuals who are in the jail system, in the prison system, many individuals were picked up on trumped up charges and moved into a prison system that is basically, you know, full of Hispanic, black individuals by large

00:48:38.420 - 00:48:54.890

percentages. So that always been a concern, of mine and I've also seen that happen face to face and growing up in the Chicagoland area and that people being arrested for nothing or being put in prison for nothing and have to have these records

00:48:54.890 - 00:49:13.850

and kind of messes up their life because they have a criminal record of some kind. So that's always been a concern of mine, as well as just basic needs and equal rights and basic things. A lot of my work deals

00:49:13.850 - 00:49:34.970

with protests, because I think it's a right that we have to protest, and we have a voice in creating a voice, whether it be for Black Lives Matter or for the LGBTQ community, all of those things are important, as well as women's rights, which is

00:49:35.420 - 00:49:55.460

incredibly, you know, the history of that is incredible, in terms of when women were allowed to vote and all those things should be, you know, important issues and have been important issues, many issues, as far as housing and redlining.

00:49:55.460 - 00:50:09.740

I mean, it's so many different things to say. So I will always create those kind of things. Do you think that there is sort of a unique power that art possesses in conversations like these ones

00:50:09.740 - 00:50:21.110

that we're talking about the ones that Black Lives Matter wants to have, and movement politics more generally? You know, is there something that art gives that is sort of unique in that conversation?

00:50:23.300 - 00:50:53.960

Um, it's a good question. I guess it's just basically, it's a narrative, you know, it's a visual communication. And artists are doing that more and more, and it's not just black artists, artists of all colors and all

00:50:53.960 - 00:51:10.670

cultures are speaking out more in their art. It's coming through. You know, Black Lives Matter is started into third 2013, in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin. And basically, it was, of course, a situation where people got

00:51:10.670 - 00:51:30.170

together, once again, to protests and to expose and to educate, and to tell the story. So it's not just here, but it's all over the world. And so that is important to me, and it's important to everyone. And that's why it's growing and

00:51:30.170 - 00:51:49.070

continues to grow. And people have, you know, they're all over the world, from the UK--it's global. So it's not just a small thing--Canada--it's everywhere. And so people are interested in seeing those narratives, I guess more because it helps not only

00:51:49.070 - 00:52:10.520

if you're living in with a family as an adult, but also our young people that are coming up, what kind of thing can you look at, that's going to advocate or individuals can see. And so whether it is like, in my case, I've done some things that

00:52:11.150 - 00:52:32.660

of photographs and marches and people going out and pulling up signs. And those things are, you know, not only there to educate, but also we have a responsibility as artists to paint or create something that is indicative of the times,

00:52:32.840 - 00:52:51.830

which is, you know, these are the times that we're living in. And this is what happened in 2020. This is what happened in 2019. This is what happened in 2016 or even 2008. President Obama was elected as the first black president, which was

00:52:51.830 - 00:53:10.850

important, and artists came out for that we did a big show at that time, with artists who created around President Obama and his image. His image was a strong image that we needed to see as the first black president. So that was equally

00:53:10.850 - 00:53:27.840

as important as protesting. So all those things in unison, in unity, basically, is educating and giving us a sense of history, where we have been. I've studied art history, where we've been and where we are now

00:53:27.840 - 00:53:52.740

and how we are, as far as kind of like, individual eyes or the connection between life and history, and how we view it. And that's basically what we do, we create what we see and try to do it in our own way in our own style. In my case, I don't I

00:53:52.740 - 00:54:11.880

don't use a lot of faces, so it's not the face but I try to work with the the spirit in the connection of a people or union over people or group of people not necessarily having that smile or that frown or whatever on their face, but more of what

00:54:11.880 - 00:54:32.730

they're doing and how they're doing they know what their what you see from an individual or groups of individuals if I'm using figures of how to best explain the story. The my story and my own interpretation.

00:54:35.150 - 00:54:46.850

That makes a lot of sense. So-- I hope so. (chuckles) No, it does. It does. So thinking about sort of art and the artist's responsibility to represent the

00:54:46.850 - 00:55:08.720

times and it seems like it's like a very personal thing, which I think most artists would agree. What's your take on the mural on the ground, the Black Lives Matter Plaza in DC, with sort of coming at it from the opposite side of not being a

00:55:08.720 - 00:55:30.500

personal representation of, you know, one artists idea, but sort of a, a government commissioned piece of art that's still making a very political statement, what do you sort of make of that? Um, I was very happy to see that in terms of not only

00:55:30.500 - 00:55:46.490

just, you know, the government getting involved and allocating the funds, and people and the security and all those things that were necessary to make it happen, but it kind of transfered to other cities as well, which was good. And what I

00:55:46.610 - 00:56:00.560

make of it, first of all, is that it was a community effort. So people came from different places. When I say that, I mean, it wasn't just a black person that was painting this mural, there are all kinds of people that was painting this mural.

00:56:00.560 - 00:56:14.520

Mhm. And they all, you know, were involved taking up the rollers and painting it, and everybody got together as a community thing, I thought that was very strong. I think that

00:56:14.520 - 00:56:33.450

was always needed. So even with my history of going back to murals. What I make of it is, I mean, it basically, as I said the vision has gone all over the world. And not only that, but many of them even the Breonna Taylor mural that's been painted

00:56:33.450 - 00:56:56.070

in different places, and George Floyd and different places like that, that those are all statements that are now helping the public eye to see which is definitely necessary. So specifically the Black Lives Matter mural and even the street

00:56:56.070 - 00:57:14.190

that is named after that. You know, the White House off of 16th street that you might have been down to see or visit, which many people have, is kind of a special place, not only to, to know what has happened at that particular--kind of again, a

00:57:14.190 - 00:57:41.550

historical aspect, but also a place where we realized that it was a necessary place to claim in terms of like this is so big, that you have to see this, you have to go down and be there and see. It has become a meeting place in some regard for folks

00:57:41.550 - 00:57:55.890

to actually engage, a place where protest is happening. You know, right outside the White House, you probably know, it's always been innovative in protests, and always been individuals who had signs there. It was not a new thing. But this

00:57:55.890 - 00:58:16.740

kind of gives a sense of place of where that connection can be. I guess that's the only way I can explain it. But it's definitely a strong statement, which was a necessary statement and hopefully continues to be a necessary statement. And let me

00:58:16.740 - 00:58:33.420

just say this, you know, we shouldn't have to do this. As a nation, we have to do it, because we have to do it. But we shouldn't have to do this. You know what I mean? We shouldn't have to actually say, Okay, we have to paint a mural and say

00:58:33.450 - 00:58:51.810

"Black Lives Matter" so people will see that black lives matter. You know, nobody really wants to set out to say we need to do this. So I guess I'm saying is that, yeah, it could be a street name, anything. It's okay. But it's necessary to do

00:58:51.810 - 00:59:09.600

this so people can see and understand that black lives matter. And I would say that, you know, if you had a street that says Hispanic Lives Matter, you know, first responders matters, nurses matter. All those things do matter, you

00:59:09.600 - 00:59:22.910

know, and it can be a street for all of those, because people will forget, society forgets, government forgets, you know? Mhm. Thinking about the American Indian, how we forget

00:59:22.910 - 00:59:44.450

so quickly who was here before us, they matter those tribes matter, those individuals matter, you know. I was glad to see the the American Indian Museum on the mall and I hope it's in different places in the country. So, you know, Black

00:59:44.450 - 01:00:01.910

Lives Matter, all these lives matter. And we can actually continue to say all of these things through art somewhere and somehow that we all understand. That, you know, we are one people. Everything does matter and people do matter, no matter

01:00:01.910 - 01:00:12.950

what ethnicity you are, no matter where you are, everybody matters. And that happens, then it would be a great society Mhm. A better society I will say.

01:00:13.970 - 01:00:24.680

Yeah, exactly the day that we achieve that as the day we can stop writing the other things of who matters and that sort of thing. Once it's achieved, that's kind of the problem that we're in right now.

01:00:25.580 - 01:00:38.690

That's the problem. So sort of my last wrap up question is, it's kind of speculative. And so there's no really right answer or anything, but in thinking about sort of the trajectory of Black

01:00:38.690 - 01:00:58.910

Lives Matter, as well as, like the art and the cultural output that has accompanied that. What do you think, sort of the trajectory of the Black Lives Matter movement is? I know, some people see it as conceptualized as part of sort of the long

01:00:58.910 - 01:01:12.890

civil rights movement, and they see some threads there, and that sort of thing. But I think we're still very much at a point where it's uncertain what the future of its gonna look like. I know there was a big turnout for a lot of protests this summer, but

01:01:12.890 - 01:01:27.440

we started to see that sort of wane as we moved into fall. So just thinking, just from your own perspective of sort of what you think the future of the movement as well as the art that goes along with that is or could be?

01:01:30.620 - 01:01:56.660

Well, I really don't feel that it's--well, let me say this, this is now more than just a movement. Pretty sure it's a corporation. There's people behind it, there's funding behind it. So it's here to stay as long as it can stay. And I

01:01:56.660 - 01:02:16.280

think as long as people actually want to fund and move it forward. I think that's an important part. When I say people, I mean, you know, people who are giving, people are sharing, people who are continuing to move this in the

01:02:16.280 - 01:02:35.930

forefront. But I think it has moved in a different direction, not necessarily, because, you know, I hope people think it's just--and when when I say, people think I mean, I'm just speculating, of course. But it's beyond that, you know, I mean,

01:02:36.020 - 01:02:53.990

even civil rights is still moving. Mhm. Civil Rights, it doesn't change. Black Power movements are still moving. And so Black Lives Matter movement

01:02:53.990 - 01:03:17.780

will continue to move, as well, because it's, it's not only a movement, but it's a necessary kind of platform that, you know, it's all like we were just saying. If things are met and things are justified, you know, they want justice, because

01:03:17.780 - 01:03:37.430

that's basically an emphasis for all of this is equal justice. It will continue, you know, and so it's not a separate thing. It's not that Black Lives Matter is here, and we're here, it's like everybody is involved with this, especially if you are a person

01:03:37.430 - 01:04:02.120

of color, because it's working on everyone's behalf. And that might be something that maybe the media needs to really continue to say, more so than, you know, individuals, because it's not just a movement of black people. And really what I

01:04:02.120 - 01:04:21.020

saw, going to protests and seeing protest is that there were more white people than black people protest at Black Lives Matter Plaza, on the street. And so that is important, that is important. And like I said, going back to

01:04:21.170 - 01:04:41.000

when I've seen the civil rights movement, started off as a black movement, and many white, Hispanic and all kinds of cultures coming together, that became more of a unified America. And so I see black lives matter as bridging and

01:04:41.390 - 01:04:57.530

putting a unified America together. So that hopefully will continue. And it can have another name, it doesn't have to even have a name. The bottom line is bringing people together in a way that has never been put together before.

01:04:58.310 - 01:05:18.020

The strength of people is basically what I'm talking about, people all together and speaking out about issues that affect all of us. So it's not that Black Lives Matter is talking about black lives. Yes, don't kill us, don't hurt us.

01:05:18.110 - 01:05:38.210

Let us live, let us continue to breath. It's talking about everybody. It's talking about if black lives matter to you, it will matter to everybody. And the more that everybody sees this is how that bridge and that connectedness which we need, as

01:05:38.210 - 01:06:03.050

a unified America, will come together. And so it's a powerful situation. And it's a powerful group of just everyday Americans coming together to say, Enough is enough. No justice, we need justice, we need equal justice, stop killing us, black people

01:06:03.050 - 01:06:24.380

stop arresting black people, stop arresting brown people. Give us, you know, more justice as a people, basically. So I don't know where it's going to go. And I think it's going to go because like I said, there's thousands of people that--it's

01:06:24.860 - 01:06:43.070

not a membership, like you joined, it's of people that care. And I see that happening, especially with our young people right now, our young people all over the nation, all over the world, is that people have had enough of injustice here and

01:06:43.070 - 01:07:03.880

everywhere. And are no fighting for bridging those gaps and coming together, it's one of the most important things. So it's going to go nowhere, but forward I think. I really appreciate that. I think that when you

01:07:03.880 - 01:07:19.690

talked about it sort of going beyond just, you know, it's not just black people out standing in the streets and protesting for this, but it really has been a unifying force, especially this summer. So I really appreciate that. I know I said

01:07:19.690 - 01:07:33.250

that that was my last question. But I was curious if you would tell me just a little bit about the protests that you were talking about that you went to? And just a little bit about what that was, like, just like a minute of your experience?

01:07:37.150 - 01:07:49.480

Well, I hope you had a chance to go out and do some protesting Joy. I don't know if you had. This summer, I wasn't able to have a family member who's immunocompromised. And so I wasn't able to

01:07:49.480 - 01:08:08.020

unfortunately so that's why I'm so curious actually. Well, yeah, living in Washington. And I've been to many different varieties of protest. This summer, you know, even going to some of the protests that was on Black Lives

01:08:08.020 - 01:08:32.320

Matter Plaza and marches that was, you know, Reverend Sharpton organized and different things. So, my reaction to it, basically, as I mentioned, was very refreshing. And it's the twofold. One it is refreshing, like I said, to see so many

01:08:32.440 - 01:08:54.010

people out, you know, taking their time, their energy, and even taking risk to be out, you know, in a pandemic. Beautifully, everyone had a mask, there was very few people who didn't. So I felt safe in that regard. I've gone to ones

01:08:54.010 - 01:09:12.940

where there was a large police and National Guard presence, where people were out in thousands, at the same time masked up and basically, you know, exercising their their right to a peaceful protest, which was always a peaceful

01:09:12.940 - 01:09:35.650

protests. Very rarely did I see anyone who was not--well didn't really see anybody who was not doing something that was peaceful, or going out there and doing peaceful protest. And there was agitations there were, you know, police who were

01:09:35.680 - 01:09:52.780

kind of agitating and pushing a cause. But in regards to overall presence, there was nothing but peace and nothing but individuals who were actually just pleading and hollering and crying out. You know, all the things that you see and the

01:09:52.780 - 01:10:09.550

signs that you see "Justice George Floyd and Breonna Taylor" and, you know, interesting enough, there were signs, many signs that I saw is, "I am learning." Many white individuals said "I'm learning. Give us a moment. I didn't

01:10:09.550 - 01:10:29.740

understand now I understand Black Lives Matter," they will hold on those signs. And that's the refreshing part. That's the part that was needed for, as a black man going down and seeing that gives me hope, you know, and everybody walking together

01:10:29.770 - 01:10:51.040

in unison or marching together or in unison, saying, yes, we're on the same page, we're in the same area, and I care, you care, you care, let's get this together, let's move forward in this. And, you know, even looking at the faces of, say,

01:10:51.160 - 01:11:09.130

the police department, which was doing their job and basically holding, so no one would break up windows or anything like that, holding their own. You can see that on their face, too, that the same kind of thing is like they're people and they

01:11:09.190 - 01:11:26.140

realize it and they get it. That just happens to be their job. So overall, I see this really hopeful feeling, especially since we have a new president and hopefully a new administration that has the same idea behind, you know, bringing

01:11:26.140 - 01:11:40.120

us closer together and bringing peace to us, as a group of people and I united America. I hope that answers the question. It did. Thank you so much for sharing. You're welcome.

01:11:41.140 - 01:11:56.420

This has been an incredible interview. Is there anything that you had hoped to talk about, that you thought I would ask you that I didn't ask you that you want to cover now? Um, I think I've talked about everything. You

01:11:56.420 - 01:12:22.430

know, I just I just want to kind of reiterate the fact. And then you asked me about art again, and I guess I can say, on that note that, you know, artists are, you know, kind of like the windows and the eyes for people, you know, as an artist, we have

01:12:23.420 - 01:12:44.900

a job and a responsibility. I would hope that, you know, not only just living in Washington, but all over that people start to accept art and artists as a group of individuals, a job, and move forward within that, number one. And the second thing is, I

01:12:44.900 - 01:13:07.250

hope that through all the--and I think this is happening as well through murals, and through signs and through, you know, all these things that people realize how important art is to a community and cause and a movement and a growth and that

01:13:07.250 - 01:13:22.190

history. Because, you know, all these years that I've been working in it, people seem to underestimate it, or take advantage of it or not realize the importance of art. And I think and I hope that comes into fruition more as we move forward

01:13:23.960 - 01:13:41.400

in the coming years, so I'm encouraged. Wonderful. Thank you for sharing. And thank you for sharing sort of the particularly the things that you're hopeful about that's--I think we could all use a little bit more

01:13:41.400 - 01:13:50.760

hopeful these days. So I appreciate that. You're welcome. Thank you. And yeah, what do we have, except for hope? (chuckles) Exactly.

01:13:51.240 - 01:14:04.140

Yeah, especially in these times. So we have to remain to be safe and patient too. So thank you for the interview. I appreciate it. Of course, thank you for being willing to give me

01:14:04.230 - 01:14:16.860

more than an hour of your time now. Um, I really do appreciate it. I couldn't do my, my project without you. You're welcome. All right, so I'm going to go ahead and stop the

01:14:16.860 - 01:14:17.610

recording.